back to article Nancy Pelosi ties Chinese cyber-attacks to need for Taiwan visit

Speaker of the US House of Representatives Nancy Pelosi has tied her controversial visit to Taiwan to an alleged barrage of China-directed cyber-attacks against the territory. Pelosi's main reason for visiting Taiwan, as explained in a press release, is "reaffirming our support for our partner and … promoting our shared …

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  1. PhilipN

    Good summary

    Thank you, Simon. A more balanced and informative precis than you will see in any Western media.

  2. Cheshire Cat
    Unhappy

    China's just testing the waters

    Most Taiwanese are generally happy with the current status quo - they have had de facto independence for many decades, and have never been under the control of the CCP, but nobody wants to upset China by pointing it out. However the way China has behaved in HK, and the way Russia has behaved in Ukraine have made a lot more people nervous of China potentially using "bigger-army-diplomancy" to bagsy them and start a war.

    1. Dinanziame Silver badge

      Re: China's just testing the waters

      Indeed. Until a couple of years ago, it was possible to think that Taiwan could be reunited with the mainland and keep most of its "separate" rights; but the events in Hong Kong made painfully clear what would happen instead.

      1. llaryllama

        Re: China's just testing the waters

        ^H^H united - just a reminder that Taiwan has never for one second been a part of or controlled by the PRC.

        1. Cederic Silver badge

          Re: China's just testing the waters

          No, reunited with the mainland is correct.

          Of course, the correct way to do that is to expand Taiwanese democracy across the rest of the country.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: China's just testing the waters

            If the nationalists had won, maybe the whole of China would now look more like Taiwan....

            1. jgarbo

              Re: China's just testing the waters

              You mean the fascist warlord Chiang-kai Shek and his thugs, who slaughtered Formosan natives and prostituted their women? Backed by CIA.... Mainland China would now be a slave trader's paradise. Read some history.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: China's just testing the waters

                Even now certain policies to try to make up for the atrocities have kinda back fired. For example if a TW company hires a foreigner they have to pay higher taxes, neutral for TW citizens and a tax break for hiring indigenous peoples. This ofc led to bullying in the workplace since some of the non indigenous employees would assume unfair hiring practices to get a tax break and to meet a quota.

                Anyone who thinks that the ancestors of the less than 3% left of the Formosan peoples would have given up their prime real estate to "off with their heads Shek" should really have another look.

              2. unimaginative
                FAIL

                Re: China's just testing the waters

                "Mainland China would now be a slave trader's paradise."

                So more like China than like Taiwan then?

                https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/findings/country-studies/china/

                So how come Taiwan is not a slavers paradise, is not committing genocide, and did not have to go through things like the cultural revolution and the great leap forward?

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: China's just testing the waters

                  So what % of the population do you need to affect for it to be considered genocide? Read up about Formosa, Shek crushed the indigenous people there.

              3. Triggerfish

                Re: China's just testing the waters

                Instead China got Mao and ended up with the CCP. Not sure it was a better outcome tbh.

                1. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

                  Re: China's just testing the waters

                  The chinese governnent has lifted lireally a record number of people our of poverty.

                  You may not like the way it was done, but that doesn make this any less true.

                  The US in the meantime has 60% of the population lkving from.paycheck to paycheck, and food insecurity on the rise, even with the group of people that are regularly thanked for their service.

                  The foundations of the US constitution was a great feat, but it's devolved into an oligarchy, with a few ultra-rich people essentially owning everything that's nailed down.

                  1. Triggerfish

                    Re: China's just testing the waters

                    If that is a response to me, I was literally just comparing the two leaders and the end result. If your going to point out the rebel who went to Taiwan was a bastards (which fair enough sounds a bit of one with things like the white terror, most countries who have done well have plenty dirty pasts, not excusing this), then look at the end result democracy (instead of white slavery as claimed by the poster).

                    Then it's worth comparing what China ended up with Mao, the great leap forward (several million peasants probably didn't enjoy that bit of how it was done from what I understand), suppression and the like also, with the end result of a less democratic government.

                    Just seemed a bit weird to say the democracy would have ended up a slavers paradise (which AFAIK it isn't unless I am missing something current in the news), while ignoring the reality of China's CCP.

                    1. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

                      Re: China's just testing the waters

                      (several million peasants probably didn't enjoy that bit of how it was done from what I understand)

                      Then you don't understand what happened there after Mao came to power.

                      It were the chinese intelligentia that were decimated under Mao, as they were seen as the ones collaborating with western powers, which pushed opium to the chinese population.

                      1. gandalfcn Silver badge

                        Re: China's just testing the waters

                        Interesting that the first "governor" (of Tung Chee Hwa) of Hong Kong after it was returned to China was the son of Tung Chao-yung, a senior KMT member. He tried Taiwan as the place to do business, but soon realised that was a waste of time so used Hong Kong as a better location.

                        The company logo was the Formosa flower.

                      2. Triggerfish

                        Re: China's just testing the waters

                        Oh give you that he helped eradicate the opium problem, increased literacy etc. But there's quite a bit of bad attributed to him and the cadres that followed him also. A lot of peasants died also. It's almost like both of them were more complex than the soundbite.

                        All I was trying to say was if you are pointing out that the founders of Taiwan now were bad, and that apparently the end result was a slavers paradise. While also thinking that Mao was unaccountably brilliant, and the end result of the CCP is a party of freedom of speech and thought, with a right to protest without tanks rolling over you etc.

                        I think that's a weird thing to compare and imply.

                        1. gandalfcn Silver badge

                          Re: China's just testing the waters

                          "Oh give you that he helped eradicate the opium problem" Wrong century dear.

                          1. Triggerfish

                            Re: China's just testing the waters

                            Oh I wondered as well when they said that, after all the Quing dysnaty )Opium Was) ended before that, But apparently Moa is credited with helping end the opium problem.

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_opium_in_China#Under_Mao

                2. gandalfcn Silver badge

                  Re: China's just testing the waters

                  If the KMT had stayed it would just have been more internecine warfare between rival warlords. Again.

              4. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: China's just testing the waters

                "Read some history."

                Yes, good advice. Just reading about how England/Britain slaughtered its way around the globe.

                1. that one in the corner Bronze badge

                  Re: China's just testing the waters

                  Don't forget to read about Spain, France, Normans, Romans, Vikings, and, well, pretty much everywhere, on the whole.

                  If you think this sort of behaviour is to be deplored, stick to deploring what is going on *now*.

                  'Cos if you want to try to make yourself seem clever by making political hay of the past then first demonstrate that *your* antecedents are squeaky clean (hint: they aren't, your history is as blood soaked as everyone elses')

                  1. gandalfcn Silver badge

                    Re: China's just testing the waters

                    And the USA.

                  2. Triggerfish

                    Re: China's just testing the waters

                    Yeah pretty much any place that became a power, didn't do it by being nice all the time.

                2. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

                  Re: China's just testing the waters

                  And pushed drugs on China through force of arms.

                  I feel that, seeing what was done to China in the past by the UK, that the response of the chinese governement to western bellligerence is very calm and measured.

              5. gandalfcn Silver badge

                Re: China's just testing the waters

                Quite. The KMT had to change or die, also the indigenous people have way more in common with and interact more with Filipinos than Han Chinese. The KMT were far, far worse than the CCP.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Call China’s bluff without quarter

    Most despotic governments like the CCP are just piss and wind in fancy uniforms.

    They are used to unwavering compliance from their oppressed masses.

    Give the leaders hell, make them look small and pathetic.

    They no more wish to press the big red button than we do.

    1. trindflo Bronze badge

      Re: Call China’s bluff without quarter

      I like the idea of standing up to bullying, but ... Tiananmen square.

      In addition to piss and wind they have tanks and apparently are not afraid to use them on civilian protestors in broad daylight. Or to try to bully people who bring it up.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Call China’s bluff without quarter

        The advice is for people outside China I suspect.

        1. unimaginative
          Devil

          Re: Call China’s bluff without quarter

          Tell that to Jesus College Cambridge and other apologists for the CCP. You know the college that made a huge fuss trying to take down a plaque about someone with a vague connection to the slave trade, but happily takes money from the Chinese government (slavers and genocides) to back it.

          Also MPs and other taking money from Chinese agents.

          They have corrupted our system.

          1. KBeee Silver badge

            Re: Call China’s bluff without quarter

            "Tell that to Jesus College Cambridge"

            I phone them up every Christmas morning.

            "Is that Jesus?"

            "Yes"

            "Happy Birthday to You, Happy Birthday to Youuuuu..."

      2. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

        Re: Call China’s bluff without quarter

        The guy who stood in front of the tank was not hurt (at least by that incident).

        The Tianemen square 'massacre' never happened.

        1. Peter2 Silver badge

          Re: Call China’s bluff without quarter

          Did you study history in China, or merely at a western university sponsored by China?

          The guy who stood in front of the tank was not hurt by the tank; he has never been traced. Which in China most probably means "executed".

          And are we denying that troops and tanks fired into crowds at Tianemen square? Seriously? If it never happened, why do the Chinese need to censor it?

        2. Mike 137 Silver badge

          Re: Call China’s bluff without quarter

          "The Tianemen square 'massacre' never happened"

          Not actually on the Square, which was essentially a rallying point, but around 200 died on June 3 at Muxidi 2.5 miles to the west of the Square, and several civilians, government officers and soldiers died elsewhere around the Beijing area. The final official statistics were 241 dead of which 218 were civilians (Zhang Liang The Tiananmen papers [Little Brown & Co, UK 2001])

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Call China’s bluff without quarter

            But 241 is generally believed to be a ridiculously low estimate. The truth will never be known.

        3. Stork Silver badge

          Re: Call China’s bluff without quarter

          You forgot the sarcasm tag

  4. lglethal Silver badge

    I really wish the west would just come out and acknowledge Taiwan as a full nation, give it embassies and just stop the whole One China thing. Acknowledge and reward the people of Taiwan for developing a strong and stable democracy!

    What can China do if the entirety of Europe, the USA, Australia, UK, etc. all act at the same time? It can't attempt to stop trading with all of them at the same time, it can't attempt to punish them all at the same time. A United front would show China that despite its words to the contrary it needs the west as much as the west needs it. Probably more in truth.

    It won't happen, but it would be lovely to see...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Perhaps we could refer to Taiwan as 'real China' and the PRC as 'occupied China'

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Let's not be silly

        " we could refer to Taiwan as 'real China' and the PRC as 'occupied China' "

        We could but it would be absurd. The CCP won the civil war in 1949 and the KMT lost it, and they both agreed all along that the island of Taiwan was part of China.

        If Taiwan had attempted to secede from China, in say 1960, they would probably have succeeded and would now be an independent member of the UN. But Chiang Kai-shek insisted on the fiction that he was the real ruler of China, and that opportunity was lost. That's why the UN seat was given to the Beijing government in 1971 and Taiwan was left nowhere.

      2. gandalfcn Silver badge

        It is known as the Republic of China, RoC, previously Formosa.

    2. llaryllama

      As a Taiwanese who would absolutely love to normalize our status the sad fact is that it's complicated and we have to be somewhat pragmatic.

      I can travel (at least I could pre-covid) with my green Taiwan e-passport visa-free to most of the world including Europe and the UK. We vote directly for our representatives and presidents. We have our own currency, military, political system, banking network, postal service, phone prefix etc.

      Yes, it's pretty annoying when you book a hotel or flight and have to click "Taiwan, Province of China" in the dropdown box but if the only option to scrap that is going to war I guess we can deal with it. Apart from that we are already a 100% independent democratic nation and a pretty damn fine one if I may say so.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I have team mates in Taiwan and miss my pre-covid trips: Good food. Good hospitality And just a genuinely enjoyable country to visit. Hopefully will return soon for afternoon bubble tea and evenings of 18 days beer and whiskey.

      2. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

         100% independent democratic nation

        Asude from the fact that the Taiwanese govt is doing exactly what they're being told by their US overlords.

        If you want to see what happens to US allies, just at the multitude of former 'allies' of the US that were no longer useful.

        If there's going to be a hot war in SE Asia, the US will have no qualms to fight it down to the last japanese, south-korean and japanese citizen.

        1. Peter2 Silver badge

          Did you realise that you are parroting the same propaganda attack lines as used in Ukraine when Russian supporters attack the US for supplying weapons requested by the Ukrainian Government who want to resist being invaded by a bunch of totalitarian despots?

          1. abstract

            NATO is a military organization. Quit the hypocrisy.

            Most countries in the world that don't align with the US are under war or embargo.

            You whine about Ukraine because it is happening to you. If it was the US attacking Ukraine, the country would have already been flattened for its own good.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              The Ukraine and Taiwan situations are just different and cannot be compared.

              Ukraine: UN member state; independence from the Soviet Union when the latter fell apart is almost universally recognised, including by the US.

              Taiwan: Not a UN member state; independence from China almost universally unrecognised; not recognised by the US; civil war between Communists and Guomindang never formally ended, as far as I can see.

              1. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

                Very little difference. Both are used as proxies to contain what the US sees as threats to their hegemony.

                Instead of focusing inward and making life.better for its citizens, the US is desperately trying to cling on to the unilateral power they wielded after the USSR fell, after which, instead of using their power to lift everyone up, they used it to enrich themselves, while keepimg everyone else down.

                This has now come back to bite the US in the ass.

                50% of every tax dollar paid in the US goes to the MIC, while infrastructure is crumbling, healthcare is #38 on the planet in quality, while being #1 in cost, life expectancy has actually dropped in recent years and mental health has dramatically decreased, resulting in mass shootings and the whole blue hair zher, xe, they, them idiocy. Meanwhile the prison population has explodede and is higher in both absolute and relative numbers, compared to a 'tyrannical' government like China's.

                With US inmates being used as slave labour and people going to prision for having a joint in their possession, while the son of the current president has been filming himself with deug dealer amounts of crack, which is being muffled under the carpet.

                1. Jellied Eel Silver badge

                  With US inmates being used as slave labour and people going to prision for having a joint in their possession, while the son of the current president has been filming himself with deug dealer amounts of crack, which is being muffled under the carpet.

                  There's also Paul Pelosi's DUI case in Napa Valley. Poor guy must have been so stressed he flashed his CHP donor card at the police officers instead of his driving licence. Easy mistake to make i guess. And the appointment of a judge who's a Democrat, but has never run a criminal trial the day before is sheer coincidence.

              2. gandalfcn Silver badge

                Correct. The biggest losers have been the Formosans who are not exactly in love with the Han.

            2. Peter2 Silver badge

              That's strange. It's almost as if the original poster has created another account to reply with to make it appear as if they are in something less of a minority. ;)

              1. Kabukiwookie Silver badge

                Didn't you mean Putin bots? Everyone who has a minority view contrary to yours, must be a bot.

                Have actually ever thought about someone just blindly (I don't see any proof of your claims) main stream media (not even non-mainstream articles from western media, but the most generic drivel that outlets such as CNN considers news), is actually being a sheep?

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