back to article Version 251 of systemd coming soon to a Linux distro near you

Version 251 of the controversial systemd Linux init system is here, and you can expect it to feature in the next version of your preferred distro. The unified system and service manager for Linux continues to grow and develop, as does Linux itself. There is a comprehensive changelog on Github, so we will just try to pick out a …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Software Junk

    Presumably the users are happy too: Chromebook sales may be down, and they only have a fixed lifespan, but there are still well over a hundred million of them out there.

    Have we really come down to having Computer hardware that is so locked down that at the end of its [cough][cough] supported life we are expected to send it to Landfill?

    I know that we have a disposable society but this is getting stupid and is a total waste of finite resources.

    Google and the people behind this can go ''F' themselves. This makes me even more determined to extinguish google from my life.

    1. Liam Proven (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      Re: Software Junk

      I submit that there are several things that contradict you.

      [1]

      As I linked in the article, the default support lifetime is 6½ years:

      https://www.theregister.com/2019/08/22/buying_a_chromebook_dont_forget_to_check_when_it_expires/

      For a rock-bottom price bracket, cheap consumer laptop, 6 years is a pretty long time. I suspect a great many of them will be clapped out or broken by then.

      [2]

      They won't suddenly stop work working. They just stop getting OS updates. They may continue to get browser updates for a while.

      [3]

      Secondly, as the ChromeOS Flex article I linked to also points out, it *is* possible to "root" most ChromeBooks and install your own OS. If you do that and install ChromeOS Flex, you get OS updates again.

      1. dajames

        Re: Software Junk

        For a rock-bottom price bracket, cheap consumer laptop, 6 years is a pretty long time. I suspect a great many of them will be clapped out or broken by then.

        The Chromebook was positioned as an internet appliance rather than as a laptop. That is, it's a piece of kit sold for doing pretty much one thing — running a browser — rather than as a general-purpose computer.

        Most appliances, once purchased, can be used in their original state until they do fall apart, because they have one thing to do and they don't get any worse at doing it until they begin to fail mechanically.

        A Chromebook, though, is unlike most traditional appliances in that it does need occasional updates to correct security failings in the original programming.

        My Chromebook is about a dozen years old (it's one of the original Acer C720s) which means it's been out of support for almost half its life. It isn't clapped out or broken, and it does still work well as a browsing tool ... but I wonder whether it is as secure as it was or as it should be.

        They won't suddenly stop work working. They just stop getting OS updates. They may continue to get browser updates for a while.

        Which is really not good enough. A device that is used as an interface to the wild and hostile world of the internet really needs its security to be up-to-date.

        ... it *is* possible to "root" most ChromeBooks and install your own OS. If you do that and install ChromeOS Flex, you get OS updates again.

        That's true. One of the things I had in mind when I bought the C720 was that if I didn't like ChromeOS I could just install Debian/whatever instead. Unfortunately although Acer did make a 4GB version of the C720 I couldn't find one in the UK, so I have a 2GB machine. I could run a normal Linux distro on it, but that's a bigger system than ChromeOS and I wonder how usable it would be in that little RAM? I've never tried.

        I shall have to look into ChromeOS Flex when it becomes a little less "early access".

        1. oiseau
          Thumb Up

          Re: Software Junk

          ... I could run a normal Linux distro on it ...

          Most probably.

          I run Devuan Linux 32bit on an Asus 1000HE Atom N280/2Gb RAM and take it with me when I need to go out of town, does everything I need. When not on the road, it works as the hardware behind my coffee roasting application.

          Purchased it used back in 2011 and six years later snapped up one for a song as a donor for the a couple of shaky USB ports and a couple of plastic parts that were in bad shape.

          US$50 (recovered by selling the donor screen) plus a couple of hours of my time and it was as good as new.

          So yes, I'd expect that you may be able to do something with it.

          O.

        2. CommonBloke

          Re: Software Junk

          It should probably work well with SliTaz (the .iso is around 50MB), though last I checked, the built-in browser fails to render "advanced" sites. I think it's not HTML5 compatible

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Software Junk

            Neither is their home page. The "latest commit" throws a server-side error!

        3. VoiceOfTruth

          Re: Software Junk

          -> Which is really not good enough. A device that is used as an interface to the wild and hostile world of the internet really needs its security to be up-to-date.

          How long would you expect updates? 10 years? 20 years?

          1. Juillen 1

            Re: Software Junk

            To be honest, I'd expect a continual update, and a main line codebase. Just like you can upgrade Ubuntu based machines to the latest, or one of the more resource efficient versions for lower spec machines.

            This is not rocket science by any measure. I have a laptop from the end of the '90s that STILL runs quite happily on Linux. I don't expect much from it, but it does for mail, general browsing and so on. So that's almost a quarter of a century of support.

            The crux of it is that you need to "Root" the device to be able to upgrade it, as the vendor has artificially limited the lifespan by determining that it will not provide any further updates (these don't take huge amounts of resource; the drivers are already there). This will keep perfectly functional devices deliberately insecure so that a user is forced to upgrade to a newer product (with associated spend).

            So, the real answer to how long I would expect updates is "As long as the vendor is around". Or, at the very least, when your product goes out of mainstream support, release the drivers to the Open community and allow updates using an alternative after market supplier.

            1. VoiceOfTruth

              Re: Software Junk

              Well I see your point of view but I disagree. At some point it is not worth time for a vendor to support something. I have seen a 70 year old water boiler in a house. Should the manufacturer still be keeping spare heating elements around (if they even still in business)?

              If you were paying a continual service fee for the software that would be another matter. But I am guessing that you are not.

              1. jake Silver badge

                Re: Software Junk

                " have seen a 70 year old water boiler in a house. Should the manufacturer still be keeping spare heating elements around (if they even still in business)?"

                Bad example. Those parts are usually universal, not proprietary. I fixed the HVAC in my parental-units home a couple months ago. The parts were readily available. It was installed in 1947. I just called MeDearOldMum and she reports the AC is humming along quite nicely.

                1. VoiceOfTruth

                  Re: Software Junk

                  -> Bad example.

                  You don't see the flaw in your argument? You didn't get it from the original supplier, did you?

                  1. yetanotheraoc Silver badge

                    Re: Software Junk

                    The 1950s commercial dishwasher needed a new switch about 5 years ago. Not only did the original manufacturer ship the part and instructions, they also answered the phone when we were halfway through the repair and had a question.

                    1. Pirate Dave Silver badge
                      Pirate

                      Re: Software Junk

                      Careful there, this is an IT site. Some of us might go into shock on hearing about a company that still offers excellent customer service. It is not the norm for us and seems a foreign concept.

                      1. Munchausen's proxy
                        Big Brother

                        Re: Software Junk

                        Oh, lots of IT-related companies offer excellent customer service. Just remember that you aren't the customer.

                  2. jake Silver badge

                    Re: Software Junk

                    "You didn't get it from the original supplier, did you?"

                    Yes, I got the part from the OEM manufacturer (Honeywell), same as the HVAC assembler/seller did 75 years ago. I could have bought it directly from the HVAC assembler/seller (Frigidaire), but their markup is hostile for old kit.

              2. Juillen 1

                Re: Software Junk

                You mean like the classic car scene has a roaring trade in aftermarket spares? And a whole host of other areas that require parts.

                If you're playing analogies, this is more akin to building something to a standard which will have newer parts available ad infinitum, but putting an artificial limiter on it so that it will stop being of use (for example, having an engine management in a car that will, after a pre-determined period, or just when the vendor of the car decides that it's time for people to upgrade, which will prevent the locks ever working again).

                Or, perhaps in your boiler case, parts made to exactly the same spec are made for all the newer boilers, so they fit, tighten, and would be mechanically functional, except the parts are only available from the manufacturer, and they refuse to sell them to individuals, only their own repair departments, who refuse to fit them onto the model that the vendor decides is "currently supported".

                The hardware is good, solid and working. There is just an artificial limitation to prevent you getting after market support (which, if you really know what you're doing, you can probably circumvent, but your average person wouldn't have a clue).

                And if you don't know the difference between compiling in a kernel driver and building heating elements, and the relative impact the distribution has, then I'd advise looking carefully at both.

                One can be done very quickly and tested, and distributed for almost free to tens or hundreds of thousands of units in seconds, versus a deep supply chain and a logistics cost that's non-trivial.

                1. VoiceOfTruth

                  Re: Software Junk

                  -> aftermarket spares

                  = not from the original manufacturer.

                  1. eldakka

                    Re: Software Junk

                    You are either missing - or being obtuse - the main point of the argument.

                    Chromebooks are locked down so it's not possible for someone else to support it via standard components or after-market efforts, unlike with the examples provided of boilers, HVACs, old cars, etc, that aren't locked down so support is in fact provided via 3rd parties in the form of standardized components that are still availalable or niche after-market manufacturers.

                    One of the options offered instead of the original manufacturer supporting it forever mentioned by the posters you are replying to is:

                    > Or, at the very least, when your product goes out of mainstream support, release the drivers to the Open community and allow updates using an alternative after market supplier.

                    The argument is that while the vendor deilberately keeps it locked down with the intention of preventing anyone else from supporting it they should maintain support. Once they decide to cease support they should open it up so it can be supported by 3rd parties.

                    1. VoiceOfTruth

                      Re: Software Junk

                      -> Chromebooks are locked down so it's not possible for someone else to support it

                      Blah blah blah. Never heard of rooting a device?

                      1. eldakka

                        Re: Software Junk

                        > Blah blah blah. Never heard of rooting a device?

                        Blah blah blah. Never heard of presenting a coherent, reasonable, sensible argument?

                        1. VoiceOfTruth

                          Re: Software Junk

                          Evidently you haven't.

                          Some people, and particularly some people in the Linux mob, think that manufacturers owe them everything for ever. Can you ring up Ford today and say "hello, I have a Model T and it needs a new bobble'? No, you can't. Well you can try but you will get no for an answer. The fact that your Model T has worked up until now is irrelevant.

                          When I asked earlier how long hardware should be supported for, the first reply was 'a continual update'. In other words forever.

                          Have you ever worked in IT? I am guessing not, because you don't seem to have a clue. I cannot think of any piece of hardware we have bought that did not have an EOL date. Quite often we run that hardware beyond EOL, in a less critical role. Other times we had third party support (sometimes). If you look today at Cisco, Oracle (Sun), HP, etc, they announce EOL dates for hardware.

                          So why would a cheapo chromebook be expected to last with continual updates until the next ice age?

                          1. SImon Hobson Silver badge

                            Re: Software Junk

                            Some people, and particularly some people in the Linux mob, think that manufacturers owe them everything for ever

                            What a pile of male bovine manure.

                            What most people want is not that the manufacturer support a product for ever, not that the manufacturer will give them support in "doing other stuff with it", but that the manufacturer doesn't put more effort into preventing anyone using a product in any way not deemed acceptable to the manufacturer.

                            The "particularly some people in the Linux mob" actually would be quite happy if the device wasn't locked down to prevent them loading whatever software they want on it and using it how they like. If it doesn't work, fine, the manufacturer can wash their hands of it. But too much stuff now is locked down, and quite frankly there is a LOT of effort that goes into that. And mostly it's done under the cover of "but, security" while it's actually to create artificial obsolescence so the manufacturer gets to sell more stuff and/or prevent people buying stuff without giving the manufacturer 30% protection money.

                            The poster boy for open hardware used to be Linksys. You could buy a WRT54G and put different software on it - it was great. Linksys didn't expend any effort or provide support - they just left the hardware open and accessible so that people who wanted to could work out the details themselves. Back in the day, we (my employer) bought quite a few of those (instead of anything else) for just that reason.

                            1. VoiceOfTruth

                              Re: Software Junk

                              -> What most people want

                              Call to the masses = fail.

                              1. Anonymous Coward
                                Anonymous Coward

                                Re: Software Junk

                                You really can't get enough of those downvotes can you, and keep coming back for more (13 posts so far).

                            2. Havin_it
                              Coffee/keyboard

                              Re: Software Junk

                              If Linksys appears on any poster relating to this it's likely a satirical one. They had no intention of any of this, but they went and copied some GPL code and inadvertently violated the license. When they got found out, they were (eventually) forced to open-source the firmware.

                              Story

                              They learned their lesson and used VxWorks after that.

                        2. werdsmith Silver badge

                          Re: Software Junk

                          I run an old Toshiba Chromebook with Linux. It's very old, I bought it many years ago and it was already used.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Software Junk

            "How long would you expect updates? 10 years? 20 years?"

            I expect quality workmanship, but we never get that, do we

        4. jake Silver badge

          Re: Software Junk

          You wrote "— running a browser —"

          ITYM "—running a browser—" ... but running a browser might scan better.

        5. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

          ChromeOS Alternative: Install SeaBIOS + OpenBSD

          I bought an Acer C-710 on sale at Fry's in 2013, and it still works, though the mouse buttons are begnning to go flakey and battery runtime is decreasing.

          The first thing I did was back up ChromeOS, then installed SeaBIOS so it acted like "a regular computer", then installed OpenBSD. The only downside was OpenBSD (still) not dealing with the builtin wireless, which I fixed with a USB-attached wireless unit.

          If OpenBSD is not your thing, there are other Unix and Linux distros you can run. Elsewhere, I run Devuan to avoid the plague of Systemd.

      2. jake Silver badge

        Re: Software Junk

        This laptop is 18 years old. It is still running a supported version of Slackware, one which has no EOL announced as of yet. It is fully capable of running all of my myriad interlinked businesses when I'm on the road ... and thanks to FOSS advances (and a RAM increase ... 256megs to 2gigs), it works better than it did when I bought it!

        Some of us don't listen to marketing weasels. They lie, by training and inclination.

        I've also replaced the hard drive twice, and a cooling fan once.

        1. thx1111

          Re: Software Junk

          Sorry - You missed the point. Not "laptop", but instead, "Locked-down Goggle Chrome Book".

          Until you've had to first compile and install a custom boot loader onto your Chrome Book boot ROM, before you are able to install your preferred Linux distribution, you may not really appreciate the difference.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: Software Junk

            Oh, I appreciate the difference alright ... I just chose not to purchase broken by design hardware.

          2. VoiceOfTruth

            Re: Software Junk

            Why would you purchase such hardware in the first place? A foolish penguin and his money are soon parted.

            1. An_Old_Dog Silver badge

              Hacking off the Chromebook Locks

              I bought my Chromebook because:

              (a) It was the only Chromebook I'd seen with a real-all-the-keys PC-style keyboard;

              (b) I knew there was a procedure and freely-available code available I could use to install SeaBIOS, and hence install my preferred OS; and,

              (c) It was only $199.00 (store demonstrator on-sale).

              I don't recommend this for Ma-and-Pa, but for techies, I do.

              1. VoiceOfTruth

                Re: Hacking off the Chromebook Locks

                (b). Very good. So you did a bit of research or had prior knowledge.

          3. spireite Silver badge

            Re: Software Junk

            Goggle Chromebook?

            Presumably, you mean performance dives after a short while.....

      3. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge

        Re: Software Junk

        Google doesn't believe in dynamic linking. It makes software management trivial if you don't mind each app being 20 to 500 MB. It's fine for Google but that's a lot to serve up to the world when your open source project has a revenue of zero.

        Snap, Docker, etc. claims to fix dependency management, but that's never how it goes in real use. The layers are customized so close to the root that every project ends up being 100 to 2500 MB. That size creates dependencies on well-funded hosting services.

        So, here we are with complex dependency management to keep free software free and scalable.

      4. BOFH in Training

        Re: Software Junk

        I know someone who had an Acer Chromebook passed to her as a gift.

        I think it's support is ending in another 2 months or so. The hardware seems to be still working fine, and hopefully it can be repurposed or unlocked when the support ends.

        She recently got a laptop from me, so she is planning to pass that Chromebook over to someone else. Hopefully it will still have some use until the hardware itself fails.

      5. D@v3

        Re: For a rock-bottom price bracket, cheap consumer laptop

        While they may have started out as such, and can still be had for <£300, somewhere down the line they have spiraled out of control, and can cost as much as £1800 (Latitude 7410 Chrome)

      6. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Software Junk

        "They won't suddenly stop work working. They just stop getting OS updates."

        So, what you are saying is, we were sold junk that was insecure?

        I wish for the day where product manufacturers are held to account for their incarnations, and that includes weapons manufacturers

        1. VoiceOfTruth

          Re: Software Junk

          -> So, what you are saying is, we were sold junk that was insecure?

          When you bought it, were you told "we will provide updates for ever more"? I think not.

          A fool and his money are soon parted.

      7. getHandle

        Re: Software Junk

        MrChromebox (.tech) and GalliumOS FTW! My Lenovo N22 is about to go EOL so seemed like the ideal time to try it - works really nicely, even with only 2GB RAM. Just needed to figure out that wifi had to be off when installing to eMMC.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Software Junk

      I got a Commodore 64 in 1986; got rid in 1989, and then got another one in 2010. Still does what it says on the tin, still got (limited) numbers of people writing software for it, and frankly, still a lot more fun than anything modern.

      No, I can't do finite element analysis on it. But a very potent gas pipeline simulation still in professional use was originally developed to run on such limited hardware.

      An occasional replacement of the capacitors or the PSU is warranted. All readily available parts, and of course, the system came with the schematics.

      So yeah, I'll raise you your anti-Google consumerism and point the middle finger at the entire supply chain built around enforced obsolescence. Old shit is so much more fun, the sweet spot for me being mid-80's.

      1. rnturn

        Re: Software Junk

        > Old shit is so much more fun, the sweet spot for me being mid-80's.

        Ah... The days when computer companies included a printed User Manual AND a Programmer's Manual with their product.

  2. Graham Dawson
    Facepalm

    Why is the init handling system updates. This is so far outside the scope of process initialisation that I'm surprised even Poettering can justify it, without collapsing into an infinitely dense kernel of smug arrogance.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Systemd is not (just) an init system, and was never intended to be so. The init system was just one of the first modules of Systemd, and was used to get its foot in the door in most distros.

      Since then we've pretty much just had to accept whatever the Systemd team gave us, because they're well funded, have feet in all the doors, and its codebase is complex, ever changing, and monolithic.

      (someone's going to want to now come back with "Systemd isn't monolithic, it's modular!" because they don't understand the difference between codebases and processes)

      1. simonlb Silver badge
        Trollface

        its codebase is complex, ever changing, and monolithic

        Just like the steaming pile of shit which is Windows.

      2. oiseau
        Facepalm

        ... and its codebase is complex, ever changing, and monolithic.

        Quite so.

        A virus, exactly like MS's registry:

        ---

        Systemd is a virus.

        It works just like the registry does in MS operating systems.

        It's a developer sanctioned virus running inside the OS, constantly changing and going deeper and deeper into the host with every iteration and as a result, progressively putting an end to the possibility of knowing/controlling what is going on inside your box as it becomes more and more obscure.

        Systemd is nothing but a putsch to eventually generate and then force a convergence of Windows with or into Linux, which is obviously not good for Linux and if unchecked, will be Linux's undoing.

        So it does not seem as there's nothing new here: it's the well known MSBrace at work.

        Now go and tell me that Microsoft has absolutely nothing to do with how systemd is crawling inside/infecting the Linux ecosystem.

        ---

        O.

        1. jake Silver badge

          Systemd is not a virus. It doesn't reproduce itself. Yet.

          Rather, systemd is a cancer.

          Consider: systemd takes root in its host, eats massive quantities of resources as it grows, spreads unchecked into areas unrelated to the initial infection, and refuses to die unless physically removed from the system, all the while doing absolutely nothing of benefit to the host. That sounds an awful lot like a cancer to me ...

          So do what I do and call it the systemd-cancer. Short, descriptive, accurate, has been known to scare management/moneybags away from distributions containing it ... what's not to like?

          1. oiseau
            Thumb Up

            Re: Systemd is not a virus. It doesn't reproduce itself. Yet.

            Systemd is not a virus.

            I think we share the same love for it.

            So we can probably agree that it is just as damaging.

            ... doesn't reproduce itself.

            Not by itself, but by successive iterations. ie: developer induced.

            But you've nailed it: yet

            Short, descriptive, accurate ...

            It's my many years' experience with the MS registry speaking.

            Best,

            O.

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