back to article Rust dust-up as entire moderation team resigns. Why? They won't really say

The Rust language community is in disarray following the resignation of the entire moderation team, citing the "structural unaccountability" of the core development team. The moderation team, represented by Andrew Gallant, posted its resignation to GitHub yesterday, stating that it was "done in protest of the Core Team placing …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    A shame...

    I was hoping Rust would be promising, but it seems to be run by a top heavy bunch of managers,

    1. Swarthy Silver badge
      Alert

      Re: A shame...

      This is precisely the type of train wreck that has scuttled many an open source project.

      1. Sirius Lee

        Re: A shame...

        Yes, like Linux Been a disaster with just one controlling voice which explains why it's had no real take up.

        1. ICL1900-G3 Bronze badge

          Re: A shame...

          No real take up? Are you sure? Maybe small on the desktop but Huge in server world.... routers, set-top boxes... Android... No, no real take up.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: A shame...

            Whoosh...

        2. cyberdemon Silver badge
          Facepalm

          Linux a disaster with just one controlling voice which explains why it's had no real take up.

          You forgot the joke icon mate.

          1. bombastic bob Silver badge
            Devil

            Re: Linux a disaster with just one controlling voice which explains why it's had no real take up.

            I thought the snark was pretty obvious, actually (or was I wrong?)

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: A shame...

          1) He said many, not all.

          2) He was takiing about top heavy management, your sarcasm doesn't work when you cite an example with a completely different structure.

    2. Headley_Grange Silver badge

      Re: A shame...

      Sounds to me like the problem is that it's being "run" by a bunch of people who need to be managers but aren't.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: A shame...

        Sounds to me like a few wannabe managers aren't being allowed to run the place, and so are having a tantrum.

        1. imanidiot Silver badge

          Re: A shame...

          I get the suspicion there's actually something going on within the core team that the Mod team feels they should act on, but can't because Core is blocking any such action. And they're avoiding actually mentioning any of that because it's bad enough it'll make all of them look very bad.

    3. thames

      Re: A shame...

      There's 10 "teams". Most open source projects don't even have 10 people actively contributing. That's a lot of managing for what is a project which should have a fairly focused scope.

      What it sounds like is a management power struggle with the losing party resigning. The Core Team are the ones who are supposed to be in overall charge, so it's no surprise that they came out on top.

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: A shame...

        We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week,...

        : ...but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting...

        : ...by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,...

        : ...but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major--

      2. MacroRodent Silver badge

        Re: A shame...

        I don't think 10 teams is necessarily excessive. The Rust project has many parts that need a bit different skills: defining the language itself, creating and maintaining the implementation and related tools, documenting, web site management, testing, keeping CI up, and probably some I missed. It is an uncommonly ambitious project, most other open-source projects are far simpler.

        1. sreynolds

          Re: A shame...

          The two competent guys should just fork off and let the bureaucrats stick around doing nothing. Not unlike the mid to late 90s but with Amazon doing to rust what Redhat did to gcc.

      3. DrXym Silver badge

        Re: A shame...

        Read what most of those teams are engaged in. Most aren't touching the core language, they're working on specific areas like embedding, documentation etc.

        The moderation group just appears to the ones who take care of the mailing lists, set the code of conduct, approving people, banning obnoxious people and the like.

        1. Tom Graham

          Re: A shame...

          "Moderating" a programming language - so completely unnecessary then.

          What do they do - ensure the reserved words are transgender-inclusive?

          Sounds like the definition of David Graeber's B S jobs.

          Any organisation is better off without such people.

          1. DrXym Silver badge

            Re: A shame...

            No, moderating the communication channels. This is hardly a controversial thing to require in a large open source project. Do you think Debian, Apache or any other open source collective don't have moderators fulfilling similar roles to take care of forums, mailing lists etc?

    4. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: A shame...

      It does appear overly bureaucratic... why does a programming language even need a moderation team?

    5. bombastic bob Silver badge
      Trollface

      Re: A shame...

      seems to be run by a top heavy bunch of managers

      The bureaucracy-speak quoted within the article was making my brain fog and my eyes glaze over.

      (Yeah I THOUGHT I smelled 'bureaucracy')

      All of this anal retentivity over CoC and violations and bans and @#$% makes me wanna puke my guts out (wanting very much to continue on with something along the lines of "vacuous toffee-nosed malodorous pervert" like a famous Monty Python sketch... but would THAT violate their CoC? Oh the tangled webs we weave!!!)

    6. Old Handle

      Re: A shame...

      Not anymore, they quit.

  2. Gene Cash Silver badge
    Facepalm

    If it's important enough to resign

    Then it's important enough to specifically say why, so others are aware of the actual issue, so they can fix it. You're supposedly resigning in the hopes of changing things, after all.

    Otherwise it's just showboating & attention-whoring.

    Just saying "the core team sucks" is not helping anything.

    Saying "my manager sucks" doesn't help. Saying "my manager hogs all the credit and doesn't reward anyone on the team" is something people can do something about.

    1. AMBxx Silver badge

      Re: If it's important enough to resign

      How many moderators do they need? If it's more than a handful, they have bigger problems.

      1. coward02913

        Re: If it's important enough to resign

        Probably a dozen to ensure that nobody says anything politically incorrect. And to ensure nobody is using master/slave terminology, because that is prohibited by the inclusive language rules. And that nobody is using incorrect pronouns too.

      2. DrXym Silver badge

        Re: If it's important enough to resign

        It says two and probably that's enough to deal with people wanting to join lists/forums, deal with complaints etc.

    2. badflorist

      Re: If it's important enough to resign

      Between the lines.... Jimmy keeps pulling crap without talking to Marry, that is until Jimmy made a boo boo and now he has to talk to ANGRY Marry.

    3. yetanotheraoc Silver badge

      Re: If it's important enough to resign

      `Just saying "the core team sucks" is not helping anything.`

      It's helping the ex-mods preserve their sanity and dignity in a no-win situation. If they are not being allowed to do their jobs, and will later get the blame for not having done their jobs, then it's time to walk. Or would you prefer they set themselves on fire in protest?

      1. Gene Cash Silver badge

        Re: If it's important enough to resign

        would you prefer they set themselves on fire in protest?

        No, but there is holding a dialog to fix things, and there is constructive criticism.

        On one end of the spectrum there's just pointlessly bitching and moaning, and on the other, there's actively trying to fix things.

        1. Richard 12 Silver badge
          Unhappy

          Re: If it's important enough to resign

          How long do you keep trying before it's time to give up and walk away?

          I'm absolutely certain they've been actively trying to fix things for a very long time. This isn't the kind of decision one takes on a whim.

          From the way all this has been phrased, it's very clear that someone or someones on the core team has been breaking the rules repeatedly and has refused to follow them and/or accept censure. The mod team clearly don't want to name them for whatever reason, so are being rather careful about details as otherwise it'll be very obvious who.

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: If it's important enough to resign

            And I'm absolutely certain they were trying to fix what wasn't broken. That's what "moderation Teams" do when applied to open source projects.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: If it's important enough to resign

              You're both right, which is why the only way to address the problem is to point out the specific details and let others make up our own minds as to which point of view we ought to share. That would also help assess whatever structural or leadership changes should be made (like, should the moderation team be eliminated, or should the code of conduct be abolished, or should someone be removed from the core team, or something else). In hiding the details, the moderators forfeited the moral high ground and harmed their former colleagues by ensuring endless unresolvable controversy without offering any way to fix the underlying problem if one exists or judge for ourselves what solution might be best. It's absolutely bizarre to resign in protest while purposely refusing to shed any light whatever on what specifically you're protesting. It's a teachable moment: never do this.

            2. sabroni Silver badge

              Re: And I'm absolutely certain they were trying to fix what wasn't broken.

              Why are you certain jake?

              Is it because you have insider knowledge or are you just inferring what's happened based on your prejudice?

            3. Richard 12 Silver badge

              Re: If it's important enough to resign

              It's times like this I miss the Moderatrix. They'd have ended Jake for that comment.

              1. LionelB Bronze badge

                Re: If it's important enough to resign

                Moderatrix... isn't that a new RHEL fork?

          2. Robert Grant Silver badge

            Re: If it's important enough to resign

            > From the way all this has been phrased, it's very clear that

            Please remember all narrators are unreliable. It's worded in a way that cannot be described as anything but "inviting speculation".

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: If it's important enough to resign

        set themselves on fire in protest?

        THAT would be popcorn worthy!

        (seriously I just want to see them write quality code without running the project off into the weeds)

    4. jake Silver badge

      Re: If it's important enough to resign

      "it's just showboating & attention-whoring."

      Has anyone ever joined a so-called "Team"[0] formed to ensure adherence to a CoC who isn't an attention whore and showboater?

      Have any of the above ever been actually useful to the product being produced, or do they impede the progress of that project?

      Gibe me one halfway decent BDFL over all these cross-purpose "Teams" any day of the week.

      [0] If you can hear the capitol "T" when they are talking, keep well away for your sanity's sake. It's a sure sign that the bureaucracy has become more important than the project itself.

      1. jtaylor Bronze badge

        Re: If it's important enough to resign

        Has anyone ever joined a so-called "Team"[0] formed to ensure adherence to a CoC who isn't an attention whore and showboater?...Have any of the above ever been actually useful to the product being produced, or do they impede the progress of that project?

        On the board of a small non-profit, my responsibilities included "governance"and "board development." Basically, help the Board function effectively and responsibly, and continue to do so. This included things like ensuring that everyone on the Board understood their roles and their obligations. Getting concerns aired before they became conflicts (and before those conflicts became crises). Finding candidates that the Board could recruit. Arranging training. And yes, helping the Board and its members live up to the Code of Conduct and other legal and ethical commitments.

        It was hard work supporting everyone else for very little recognition even within the Board. Total opposite of your "attention whore and showboater."

        It's absolutely necessary to the final product. If your organization cares nothing for the actions and ethics of their leaders, that is whom you will attract. You'll lose the honest ones. If your organization is led by people who do not act honorably and respectfully, that cascades all the way down.

      2. SundogUK Silver badge

        Re: If it's important enough to resign

        The bureaucracy always becomes more important than the project itself.

    5. demon driver

      Re: If it's important enough to resign

      "Saying 'my manager sucks' doesn't help. Saying 'my manager hogs all the credit and doesn't reward anyone on the team' is something people can do something about"—but they didn't say "my manager sucks". They said "we were hired to moderate this place, but the managers exempt themselves from moderation" and possibly "and insist on doing some of the moderating themselves without us having a say in it", and, which wasn't repeated in the article, they offered to explain things a bit further when contacted personally.

      What would you do? Stating exactly that and quit, or publicly complaining "but Steve has said this and John has said that", before quitting?

    6. Persona Silver badge

      Re: If it's important enough to resign

      Just saying "the core team sucks" is not helping anything.

      What they are really saying is that the core team is in charge not them.

      1. veti Silver badge

        Re: If it's important enough to resign

        The core team is supposed to be in charge, that's fine. But just because you're in charge, that doesn't mean you're above the rules. A lot of people have died by not understanding that basic law of politics. (See Charles I of England, for instance.)

        So there needs to be some kind of mechanism for addressing alleged rule breaches by the core team, or at least by individual members of that team. That's what is missing.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Sounds like the team

    needs a good wire brushing and a coat of Hammerite.

    I'll get my coat.

    1. Androgynous Cupboard Silver badge

      Re: Sounds like the team

      Indeed. I sympathise with the moderation team; giving whatever corrosion they've found the oxygen of publicity will probably only make things worse.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Sounds like the team

      Do it properly: sand blasting, a hot zinc dip and powder coating. The moderators can do busy work deciding on the colour.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Sounds like the team

        Sounds like a lot of work. Build it from Stainless to begin with.

        1. dajames Silver badge

          Re: Sounds like the team

          Sounds like a lot of work. Build it from Stainless to begin with.

          That would improve rust, at least in the eyes of some!

    3. DJV Silver badge

      Re: Sounds like the team

      And a liberal spraying of WD-40!

      1. Tom 7 Silver badge

        Re: Sounds like the team

        The trouble with WD40 is you have to act quickly before it dries out and everything rusts up again. Not suitable for use near committees.

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