back to article Hole blasted in Guntrader: UK firearms sales website's CRM database breached, 111,000 users' info spilled online

Criminals have hacked into a Gumtree-style website used for buying and selling firearms, making off with a 111,000-entry database containing partial information from a CRM product used by gun shops across the UK. The Guntrader breach earlier this week saw the theft of a SQL database powering both the Guntrader.uk buy-and-sell …

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  1. I am David Jones
    Headmaster

    “all lawfully owned firearms and shotguns in the UK are stored in hefty police-approved safes”

    I think he means “should be”….

    1. H in The Hague Silver badge

      "I think he means “should be”…."

      Most likely the are - the police do make house calls to check that you're storing the kit as required. A friend of mine who received such as visit complained that the two officers were .... armed. For some reason he was rather put out by that.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Generally the chap from the licensing is unarmed, and mostly visits periodically to see what sort of place you have as filtering out the incredibly stupid is apparently quite easy; they do things like stick up Nazi flags and have leaflets for "do you fancy joining $bannedgroup?" on their coffee table.

        If he had a pair of officers turn up, chances are that his neighbours saw him cleaning his and called the police saying "my neighbour is walking around with a gun!" resulting in an armed response unit going to check on him.

        And yes, most firearm holders have weapons either out in use, or in the cabinet. You do have a few people who use them and then leave them out of the cabinet to clean for prolonged periods, but these people are definitely in a minority because they are too stupid to own a firearm and tend to get eliminated from firearms ownership in one way or another.

        I say "too stupid to own a firearm" because either you are using corrosive primers or propellents in your weapon, in which case you must clean the weapon *immediately* after using it if you don't want to lose measurable amounts of the metal in the barrel on each occasion, or your not using corrosive primers or propellents in which case it doesn't per se require cleaning. In both cases it can go straight back in the cabinet, as the license conditions of holding a weapon in the UK requires.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Some of a previous generation of NI lawyers had, in their younger days, seen active service in WWII, several of them in special forces. I was told of an RUC constable on protection duty for one of them who'd become a judge. The judge made clear that the officer's job, if he thought they were under attack at night, was to wake him up rather than responding himself. When he asked why the judge opened the door of the long case clock in the hall. There was a rifle inside.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Depends who you are as to how likely a surprise visit is, typically rich masonic grouse shoot owning mates of the chief inspector (& their gamekeeper staff with shocking gun security) magically have impeccable gun security on visit days in stark contrast to the rest of the time, almost as if they were tipped a wink.

        AC as this was based on actual outcome someone making a whistle blower call to local police about gun storage security issues

    2. teknopaul Silver badge

      plasma cutter my arse

      gun safes are metal boxes attached to the framework of the building, nothing like a safe in which you would keep valuables.

      All guns are stored separately from ammo in different part of the house. I. e. on break in you will lilely not be confronted by an armed gun owner.

      A fair few guns are going to find there way into the hands of crims as a result of this.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: plasma cutter my arse

        Ammo is stored separately, but not in another part of the house. A lot of gun safes have secondary, lockable internal ammo compartments. Personally, mine's in my room. A lot of shooters I know have the same storage situation. You can't say that someone won't be confronted with an armed gun owner based on that flawed logic. If someone breaks in, their safety is not guaranteed.

    3. andy_barratt

      Most likely are.

      Your local constabulary's FEO will inspect your storage arrangements before issuing your certificate so most people have them.

    4. Cederic Silver badge

      No, absolutely they are.

      If your firearm is not stored (when not in use) in a hefty police-approved safe then it's not lawfully owned.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Incorrect Information

      Shotguns do not have to be stored in a Gun Cabinet. There is actually no centrally enforced means of gun storage, rather it is up to the local plod.

      Firearms will almost certainly require a gun cabinet, but of the various places I have lived, shotguns are treated radically diffenetly, ranging from a cable through the trigger guard padlocked to an I-bolt through a roof beam in the loft, to a gun clamp with a cabinet only being required if you own more than one shotgun. As a reenactor, the 'shotgun' belonging to my Regiment is actually just kept in a locked storage container. The fact that the barrel from this 'shotgun' weighs around 100kg is a different matter. It's a replica 17th Century cannon.

      One place I lived, the reaction to my muzzle loading black powder musket was 'Chuck it in the loft. You're hardly going to walk into a bank, fire a warning shot into the roof and shout "Everybody on the floor for 2 miutes while I reload"'

      AC for obvious reasons.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Guntrader is roughly similar to Gumtree

    Then surely it should be called Guntree?

    1. NonSSL-Login
      Joke

      Re: Guntrader is roughly similar to Gumtree

      Ridiculous copyright and trademark laws means you will probably get a higher fine and jail time for using that name than you would be for selling stolen guns on there *

      * For joke purposes, I don't think stolen items were sold on this gun site or Gum.....oh wait a minute, i'll get my hat

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Guntrader is roughly similar to Gumtree

        Just to clarify the "I don't think stolen items were sold on this gun site" issue, whilst obviously a lot of stolen property gets shifted on ebay, gumtree etc all firearms have serial numbers and these are recorded centrally.

        It's therefore impossible to shift a stolen weapon in the UK to a legal owner; anybody putting it on their certificate would be providing the serial number to the Police and nobody would be advertising illegal weapons on a legal site; they'd get shopped pretty quickly.

        Most traceable stolen property (up to and including cars and many antiques) goes to well known parts of eastern Europe in a shipping container for precisely this reason.

    2. Blazde Silver badge

      Re: Guntrader is roughly similar to Gumtree

      Such a shame the pandemic has done it for Gumtrader. Does anyone know an alternative? I'm stuck buying brand new for now but it's so much more expensive, and it tastes funny.

  3. This post has been deleted by a moderator

  4. Howard Sway

    They set out to piss off the gun owners? Really?

    Why did you say this? Are you implying that you are going to go round and shoot them?

    1. wolfetone Silver badge

      Re: They set out to piss off the gun owners? Really?

      Joking aside, the animal rights activists are going to be jumping on this.

      If I were a gun owner who partakes in a bit of the old hunting, I'd be concerned. In terms of threats to gun users, the activists are more of a threat than terrorists. That's not me saying it, that's the view of anti-terror officers.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: They set out to piss off the gun owners? Really?

        Not being funny; but if you knew what the police response is to people breaking in to properties that are registered as holding firearms and explosives you'd look up the details specifically to avoid burgling them.

        Suffice to say that the police take people attempting to obtain firearms or explosives (aka materials useful for terrorism) really, really seriously and it is one of the few things that will attract a large scale immediate response from the Police these days. Moreover, given it's a terrorism offence they get to hold people for 90 days without charge while their life is forensically dissected. Only an idiot would do it.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: They set out to piss off the gun owners? Really?

          More or less my thought, aside from the fact that they are breaking into a farm (playing the odds) where they know the farmer is armed and they've f-all chance of getting away if the alarm goes off.

          1. General Purpose Bronze badge

            Re: They set out to piss off the gun owners? Really?

            Alternatively, that's when the robbers turn up armed and mob-handed, knowing they'll have plenty of time to get away if the alarm's raised, and knowing they'll have time to locate and steal the farm's guns.

            For example, https://www.lep.co.uk/news/crime/liverpool-gang-members-convicted-after-lancashire-farmer-is-shot-twice-in-armed-robbery-3187597

        2. wolfetone Silver badge

          Re: They set out to piss off the gun owners? Really?

          Oh I know! I had the full armed response unit outside the place I worked at because the alarm had been set - and I tripped it by accident.

          What I mean though is that there will be people outside of those trying to obtain the firearms that will want their pound of flesh. The police response to that won't be nearly the same as those trying to steal a shotgun.

        3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: They set out to piss off the gun owners? Really?

          "Only an idiot would do it."

          There are shortages of a lot of things these days but not of idiots.

          1. Eclectic Man Silver badge
            Joke

            Re: They set out to piss off the gun owners? Really?

            You say that, but my village keeps asking for me back.

          2. gandalfcn Silver badge

            Re: They set out to piss off the gun owners? Really?

            codejunky?

        4. Eclectic Man Silver badge

          Re: They set out to piss off the gun owners? Really?

          There was a letter in The Times ages ago recounting an event at a farm.*

          The farmer had noticed two people at night trying to break into a shed and called the Police on 999. The response was that no-one was available. He called back a few minutes later and said "there's no hurry, I've shot them".

          Less than ten minutes later a full Armed Response Team turned up, plus helicopter overhead with searchlight and arrested the two terrified, bemused, but otherwise unharmed would-be burglars.

          The senior police officer angrily confronted the farmer: "I thought you said you'd shot them?"

          The farmer replied: "I thought you said no one was available."

          *I recall this being read out by Alan Coren on 'The News Quiz' ages ago, so it must be true.

          1. gandalfcn Silver badge

            Re: They set out to piss off the gun owners? Really?

            Splendid.

      2. tiggity Silver badge

        Re: They set out to piss off the gun owners? Really?

        Anti Terror officers have an axe to grind against lots of people.

        FFS they would make the middle class climate protestors of ER a terror group if they had their way.

        There's a lot more violent cops than violent animal rights activists.

        .. I know plenty of wildlife monitors and hunt sabbers, they are all extremely NON violent (it's why I don't hunt sab, local sab group have policy of not retaliating to violence inflicted on them by the hunt / hunt followers - I'm too working class for that, if someone hits me, they get hit back

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: They set out to piss off the gun owners? Really?

          There's a lot more violent cops than violent animal rights activists.

          Which is why the activists wear balaclavas to make it difficult to identify them, assault police ordering them to stop breaking the law, and tend to post seriously edited footage of what happened to build public support for their criminal activities.

          This recently resulted in one of them getting jailed when they provided edited footage to the police in the hope of getting him jailed; which backfired when they were done for perverting the course of justice instead.

          https://www.farminguk.com/news/hunt-sab-sentenced-for-giving-police-tampered-clip-of-farmer_56589.html

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    only private owners

    no entries for 2nd hand, hardly used howitzers? A friend of a friend's asking, purely for research!

    1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

      Re: only private owners

      There is a guy that drives a pink tank around London as a pride thing.

      IIRC since the gun is smooth bore (rather than rifled) it only needed a shotgun licence - apparently they don't care that it's a 120mm "shotgun"

      1. Cederic Silver badge

        Re: only private owners

        I thought a shotgun certificate only covered smaller bores - I recall 2 inches being a limit, but even that may only be for muzzle loaders.

        Above that you probably need a proper firearms certificate; check with your local FEO prior to purchase, just to be sure.

        For example, even if you're only firing blanks, anything above 1 inch requires a full firearms licence. I can't see them allowing a non-deactivated 120mm breech loader on the streets on a shotgun licence.

        1. BitEagle

          Re: only private owners

          I imagine that ammunition is something of a problem too...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: only private owners

        That's not a tank...(I would post the pedant icon, but I'm feeling cowardly today)

        It's an Abbott Self Propelled Gun.

        105mm calibre (and rifled) (and presumably deactivated to appropriate legal standards).

        1. Anonymous Coward
  6. John Riddoch

    Why bother with plasma cutters?

    All it really needs is some cable ties and a baseball bat to force the gun owner to tell you where the keys are. The kind of people wanting to steal guns aren't going to be too fussy about hurting someone in the process.

    ObXKCD: https://xkcd.com/538/

    1. amanfromMars 1 Silver badge

      Re: Why bother with plasma cutters when one has COSMIC Lancers?

      Re: Actual actual reality: nobody cares about his secrets ..... https://xkcd.com/538/

      Now that is one very safe and extremely secure space to be in, unhindered as it is by second and third party doubts and worries .... both as real and imagined phantom fears.

      And a grand place to be for Further Future Planning ACTivity Secrets to be freely and clearly shared/constantly 0day presented, in order to reach the many and those who may matter and would express a particular interest in such matters, and certainly more than any identifiable as any peculiar Chosen Few Doing God's Work, .... with ambiguity in the task considered and rendered persona non grata and as a perverse friend in league with wannabe foe ..... Mortal Idiots on Stupid Missions .... Cracked Kamikaze Operations.

    2. NonSSL-Login

      Re: Why bother with plasma cutters?

      Cable tie cock ring and a baseball bat....kinky!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Why bother with plasma cutters?

        Remind me not to attend a party Chez NonSSL

      2. Persona Silver badge

        Re: Why bother with plasma cutters?

        Well it's an alternative to "Correct Horse Battery Staple"

        1. NonSSL-Login

          Re: Why bother with plasma cutters?

          "Horse Battery Staple"

          Now that is a different party altogether!

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Why bother with plasma cutters?

      The kind of people wanting to steal guns aren't going to be too fussy about hurting someone in the process.

      The kind of people wanting to steal "guns" don't want either a highly accurate metre plus long single shot rifle, or a double barrel shotgun which is pretty much all that's held by legal firearms owners.

      The kind of people wanting "guns" want pistols or sub machine guns that can be concealed in a jacket or down their trousers; and as these are illegal for the last 20+ years they aren't going to get them from legal shooters are they?

      The best form of combat usable weapon that your going to find legally in the UK is the .303 Lee Enfield of WW2 vintage; but while that's a perfectly acceptable weapon it's useless to criminals as it's too visible and impossible to hide; if wandering around with a long weapon in the streets your going to get shopped pretty quickly by the public and the police are going to stick a helicopter on top so they don't lose them, while surrounding them with armed response squads. Even in a vehicle there are very limited numbers of places that a meter and a quarter of rifle will go. Many to most car boots won't comfortably hold a rifle and require them to poke through a ski hatch or similar, or lay across the back seats; not exactly useful if your up to something nefarious and want it to be hidden!

      Rifles also require a certain level of training to be fired with any accuracy at distance while standing if you have more than an aspiration to hit something, hence the preference for short weapons that facilitate being pulled from a jacket and let shots be liberally sprayed from such a short range that it's impossible to miss by modern gangsters.

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Why bother with plasma cutters?

        The kind of people wanting to steal "guns" don't want either a highly accurate metre plus long single shot rifle, or a double barrel shotgun

        Apart from the fact that not everyone looking for an illegal weapon is a regular criminal, they might also steal an angle grinder to go with the shotgun.

        1. Steve Graham

          Re: Why bother with plasma cutters?

          Indeed. A sawn-off 12-bore loaded with buckshot is as lethal as a sub-machine gun at close quarters.

          1. W.S.Gosset Silver badge

            Re: Why bother with plasma cutters?

            ISTR the army had a standard-issue such tool, which they nicknamed the room broom.

      2. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Why bother with plasma cutters?

        "if wandering around with a long weapon in the streets your going to get shopped pretty quickly by the public"

        Sometimes, just carrying a table leg at night is enough for a response! Especially if your a Scot in London easily mistaken for being Irish, ie speak English with a funny accent.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Mmmm! and now the criminals know where they can get guns

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      By and large, they seem to have known that before hand

    2. Anomalous Cowturd
      Holmes

      No great shakes.

      Not much call for shotguns and bolt action rifles in the criminal world.

      Handguns have been banned in the UK for many years. The only people who have them are already criminals.

      1. Alumoi Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: No great shakes.

        The only people who have them are already criminals.

        Sir, I think you may want to reconsider your last sentence.

        Yours,

        DCI John Doe, Metropolitan Police

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: No great shakes.

          Try getting a Portugese speaking plumber after 8pm is all I'm saying

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