What a weapon...
Of mass distraction. Just how Russia likes them
Julian Assange has been told to hold his tongue and not interrupt court proceedings by a judge as he contests US attempts to extradite him from Britain to stand trial over his WikiLeaks website. During the cross-examination of human rights lawyer Clive Stafford-Smith, one of Assange’s own witnesses in his extradition trial, …
"There needs to be a prima facie case for extradition for each charge."
Under the UK - US extradition treaty, the UK is obliged to demonstrate "probable cause", whereas the US has to show "reasonable suspicion", both of which are considerably less than presenting a prima facie case.
Several papers are reporting today that she didn't have diplomatic immunity. Quote from the metro:
The parents of Harry Dunn have been told by the Director of Public Prosecutions that his alleged killer did not have diplomatic immunity when she fled the UK
Not been reported in more reputable sources, but we'll see
She didn't have immunity as the indefatigable Craig Murray has reported.
There is a list of registered people with immunity, she's not on it.
The facts are plain our government allows people to come here, spy on us, kill us, and flee with impunity.
One person is not "people". Inflating the issue doesn't make your argument better, it merely makes you look smaller.
For the record, I think the cowardly drunk needs to be returned to Blighty for trial ... but I also think it's a completely different case than the one we are supposedly discussing in this comments section. Trying to talk about the two together, as if they somehow have anything to do with each other, dilutes both issues.
-On the contrary, the cases are indeed linked, given they are both political in nature.
"Inflating the issue doesn't make your argument better, it merely makes you look smaller."
You're welcome to your opinion, care to address the points you walked away from during our last discussion, while we're discussing "looking smaller".
One person is not "people". Am I to understand it is your contention that this is a one off, an abberation, in the unblemished record of the US wiping it's feet on the laws of countries around the world, and Britain. E.g. funding IRA attacks that nearly took out the government of Thatcher, Funding the Irgun. Prove it, there are at least 15 incidents related to that base alone, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-51209882
Funny enough the best place to find them is in US media , here's one - https://www.stripes.com/news/wife-children-of-mildenhall-airman-killed-in-car-crash-1.12166 From that source
The crash was the third involving fatalities from the base in recent months along the same stretch of road. Staff Sgt. Gerald Nicholls, 32, was killed in a two-car crash on March 7. Andrew Waxler, the husband of an airman at the base, was killed two weeks later in a one-car accident on a foggy morning.
Remind me what the plural of person is ?
The only thing that has changed in recent times, is everyone has a camera and access to some sort of web publishing. Previously a D-Notice would be put out and that would be the end of the coverage.
It's been going on for a long time, and until the rule of law counts for something here and in the US, it will keep happening as the craven government bends the knee and averts its gaze.
The political behaviour of our craven government, is why Assange is being broken on the wheel.
Indeed his case turns on proving it's politically motivated, and therefore a violation of the extradition treaty.
The drunk is not the problem, the problem was the Foreign Sec, allowed this to happen, and betrayed his country. The US is used to shitting on local people throughout the world, and the only issue here is that some people are mug enough to think that doesn't include us, despite all evidence to the country.
In this case the US is not at fault for protecting it's citizen, it's us, Britain, which must hang it's head in shame at this utter betrayal of the most basic duty of government.
Assange, is being persecuted for publishing, he's denied a full defence. I'm surprised you don't care more, after all this entire thread is about people arguing about the life of a white guy.
One would have thought you'd be up in arms about it, or maybe "all lives don't matter" and really we should just shut up and suck it up.
Being an apologist for evil is wrong, stop it. My country right or wrong, is the language of fools.
The cases show as Brits we swapped sides in a colonial relationship, some of us noticed.
"In this case the US is not at fault for protecting it's citizen, it's us, Britain, which must hang it's head in shame at this utter betrayal of the most basic duty of government."
Then why on Earth are you (and many other Brits in this forum) spending so much time berating the US, which will have no effect on anything whatsoever, as you are not US voters (not that it would matter if you were, I doubt US politicians even know ElReg exists, much less care a whit about the opinions of us conmmentards) .... Shirley you should be spending your time and effort doing something meaningful about your own government if you are honestly all that passionate about it?
Re berating the US, I responded to the guff spewed forth by cliffwilliams about the US being the worlds policemen. I don't blame the American people for their government, anymore than I accept responsibility for Bozo and Jaj Jaj of the jaundiced gillet. The US has real power, it could make things better for the world, shit it could start with making life better for its own people. Forgive me for the stan lee quote, but "with great power comes high electric bills*"
The behaviour of the British Government is deeply shameful, we have people standing up in Parliament and saying that international treaties no longer bind us, our word is worth shit.
That's tragic, for us. Unfortunately, we are completely powerless, the US has checks and balances, fwtaw, we have none, The PM can and will do whatever he likes, and there is nothing we can do about it.
Indeed the more extreme the behaviour, the more entrenched people have become. We are cheerleading the destruction of the GFA..
The Assange case is just a particular egregious case, and the brazen nature of it offends people.
I agree it will not change the results in the US, but should we be complicit and silent?
We have hippies protesting a printing plant, being called "an organised crime group". We're screwed here..
Have a drink with me, we can agree that governments are gits..
You'll find that maté is a fairly common choice among so-called "natural tea" aficionados here in the United States, too. You can find it in everything from the traditional dried, chopped up yerba maté brewed with hot water, to typical Yank cold & fizzy & saturated with sugar.
I'm sorry but you have misunderstood the point of the UK-US extradition treaty. Whatever the wording is, it never, in fact, applies to American citizens.
It's a bit like the war crimes investigations into American soldiers in Afghanistan. You don't try to charge US soldiers with war crimes and if you even think of it the USA will put personal sanctions on any judge at the Hague who tries.
US Espionage Act only only needs an answer whether secret information was published or not. Obviously Wikileaks participated in publishing of that information, which means there is no defence for Assange in US court. Assange is on his way from one court of clowns to another.
"For the extradition hearing, they need to show that what he is accused of is illegal in England or some other part of the UK."
Sadly, this is not the case. As was seen with the NatWest Three, the UK - US extradition treaty allows the extradition of UK residents whose alleged crimes were acts carried out while they were in the UK and were acts that are not illegal in the UK.
were acts that are not illegal in the UK.
In what way were their acts not illegal in the UK? They were UK employees of NatWest, and attempted to defraud NatWest, by selling NatWest's stake in a dodgy Enron business to a shell company in which they had shares, which then sold it to Enron for 20x what it paid, letting the three pocket $7m between them. It's clear that they & their banker friends have justified themselves by claiming that what they did was only immoral, not illegal, but as the saying goes "they would say that, wouldn't they".
Apologies for the pedantry but I don't believe Assange is prosecuted for the publication of the information. He is prosecuted for (allegedly) being complicit in stealing the information.
A lot of this information was published collectively by a consortium of media including (from the top of my head) El País, The Guardian, Wikileaks, New York Times and Der Spiegel. None of those publications or their journalists have been in legal trouble over the publication of these files.
You know the Snowden case is unrelated, right?
Besides, Snowden was a government contractor (like Chelsea Manning) and so at the very least broke their employment contract and a bunch of other rules. People working for The Guardian, Der Spiegel, Wikileaks, El Pais etc. were not US government contractors. That makes the legal situation very different from Snowden's and Manning's.
Besides, what happened at The Guardian was not a function of American law. It was a function of the UK being a US vassal state and the Cameron government wanting to suck up to its boss.
That's not how it works.
Chelsea was *always* a she (quote from wiki "since childhood" ). That the body didn't match at the time, nor how she was treated/conditioned to behave, is not relevant to her being a 'she'.
If she had *never* come out as trans, she would still be a woman. I'll compare it to being gay - a gay person is still gay, even if they don't tell anyone.
Not knowing, or making certain assumptions towards cis/het norms is understandable, and to some extent, forgivable.
While gender fluidity *is* a thing, this is not that.
Having depression or anxiety brought on by gender dysphoria can affect your judgement. Dysphoria that might be caused by having to live as a male, when you feel you are not a male.
I don't see your implied contradiction.
Homosexuality used to be considered a mental illness and a crime. Still is, in less civilised places. Just ask Alan Turing.
Coming to terms with the fact one might not be cis/het can cause all sorts of mental health issues. Compare "gender identity disorder" with "struggling with [your] sexuality".
You know the Snowden case is unrelated, right?
I refer you to the article to which we're responding: "Assange is also accused of committing crimes by helping US National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden"
Besides, what happened at The Guardian was not a function of American law
Well, no. That was rather my point.
You obviously don't know how the Federal court system works. The odds are stacked against any defendant, especially in 'national security' cases. He's toast.
But then that's the point. Its not about justice, truth or anything like that, its about 'pour encourager les autres'.....just in case anyone else gets any bright ideas about disseminating information in the future.
(Yes, as a matter fact I am an American......we keep away from Federal law enforcement for our own good.)
In the USA evidence gathered illegally is not admissible as evidence, but in the UK evidence before the court is evidence regardless of how it got there, although it may open the person bringing illegally obtained information to criminal charges (it being used in court being an admission of guilt and all given that you've proven that you've got it.)
Technically speaking in the UK if you were a sole parent then I think they would just have jailed you for the term and if the children went into care then that's part of the "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" approach we take. I don't think we allow for plea bargains where somebody who's been caught can not get the time if they decide to identify their accomplices.
But if the Americans did do that, then plea bargains are legal in America and so information produced as a result of one wouldn't be inadmissible in evidence.
The testimony of the hacker is completely admissible in US Courts. The police and prosecutors can lie to you, threaten you with legal action, threaten you family with legal action including taking you children away to get you to talk. It happens every day. This is the real justice problem in the US that no one wants to talk about. It happens to young black men every day.
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