back to article Microsoft C# chief Hejlsberg: Our open-source Apache pick will clear the FUD

“Pushing that button was one of the more impactful clicks of my career,” says Microsoft’s C# lead architect Anders Hejlsberg. The click in question was made on stage at Microsoft’s Build conference in April, and its effect was to publish the .NET Compiler platform, codenamed Roslyn, as open source under the Apache 2.0 licence …

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  1. Alan Bourke

    I hope Apple do similar

    with Swift.

    1. JLV

      Re: I hope Apple do similar

      Agreed. MS has come a long way from the Linux is a cancer and monopoly days of El Gordo.

      Windows 8 still sucks and they still sue and badger users for supposed infringements (Android), but they've lost a good deal of their monopoly and their bluster.

      Anyone should be very careful to assess what hitching up your code to the C# bandwagon means to your business, but at least it is nice to have the option.

      Caveats aside, I think this is really, really, nice of them.

      El Reg question: Sun kept a tight leash on Java through restrictions on Java Compatibility Test. Should we understand that this will not be the case because they've released the compiler itself? That would make sense to me, but are there any little devils hiding in the details? Or would they need to release more VM test suites to allow others to fully run with C#?

      1. streaky

        Re: I hope Apple do similar

        "still sue and badger users for supposed infringements"

        Users? You mean global megacorps like Apple and Google. Users?

        "they've lost a good deal of their monopoly"

        Did they really ever have a monopoly and have they really lost it or just missed new markets being created? They're still as massive as ever in the desktop (home/business) and ent server markets and MS office is bigger than ever. People have got pissy because Microsoft didn't have an iPod competitor and missed tablets (Microsoft shouldn't reasonably be getting into hardware on that scale anyways).

      2. Uffe Seerup

        Re: I hope Apple do similar

        The Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) has been placed as a standard under ISO. It is open for anyone to implement (as the Mono project did). There is no situation comparable to Java where you had to implement the full stack and pass a (closed source) compliance test.

        A prerequisite for ISO adopting the standard was that Microsoft granted any patents essential for the implementation on RAND terms. Microsoft actually granted free right-to-use for any patents necessary for implement CLI. And they placed it under the community promise.

        This is the C# (and VB) *compiler*. Mono already had their own compiler (and did a good job at that - sometimes beating Microsoft to market on new language features) - but not like this one with incremental compilation and every stage of compilation open for interception and/or inspection by the host process.

        For years we've heard "It's a trap. Microsoft will sue and force Mono underground". Well, they cannot sue anyone for implementing the ISO standard*. Now they cannot sue anyone for using their own open sourced compiler. There are still a few libraries in the .NET stack which have not been open sourced or put under an ISO standard - but they get fewer and fewer and all the important ones (ASP.NET, MVC, all of the core libraries etc) are now open.

        *"Well they can just sue anyway and use their army of lawyers to force you out of business" someone will still claim. Well, no. The community promise has legal estoppel. Should Microsoft sue, a lawyer can point to the promise (a "one-sided contract") and stand a very good chance of having the case dismissed outright.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: I hope Apple do similar

          "A prerequisite for ISO adopting the standard was that Microsoft " stuffed the ISO board with its cronies again.

          ISO is a joke.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Interesting name...

    ...for a Trojan horse. I hope the F/OSS community treats MS's "gift" like the cancer it is.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      It is not a cancer

      It is just Microsoft's only way of keeping C# relevant. Without doing moves such as these, they were risking C# becoming a niche for line of business applications.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It is not a cancer

        "they were risking C# becoming a niche for line of business applications"

        You realise thats exactly what it is for, right? And if that was what it was used for then I'm sure Microsoft will be quite happy.

        I would choose this over Java a million times and then some....

        1. Rick Giles
          Linux

          Re: It is not a cancer

          "I would choose this over Java a million times and then some...."

          Ah, the old adage "The lesser of two weasels."

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It is not a cancer

          "You realise thats exactly what it is for, right?"

          Yes, I do. But Microsoft wants C#, or any other of their technologies for that matter, to trascend the business markets and make a dent on the iOS & Android monopolies. Something that tools focused on business applications are not going to be able to do.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: It is not a cancer

            "But Microsoft wants C#, or any other of their technologies for that matter, to trascend the business markets and make a dent on the iOS & Android monopolies"

            Windows Phone will do that eventually. The language that you use to do it doesnt matter so much - Windows Phone 8+ uses C++ for the record - not C#.

            "Something that tools focused on business applications are not going to be able to do."

            Very wrong there - enterprise and business are where most of the big money and high margin niches are. Windows Phone already has a 20% market share in enterprises in the UK for instance. This in turn will force application makers to port high value business applications to the platform or to loose market share.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: It is not a cancer

              "Windows Phone will do that eventually."

              Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! You funny.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: It is not a cancer

                "Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! You funny."

                Windows Phone is already ahead of IOS in 25 countries. And is still the fastest growing mobile platform year on year. With the imminent release of the Lumia 930 - which imo is their first really comparable high end platform - and the recent reduction in license cost to zero, I think that's near certain to continue...

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: It is not a cancer

                  "Windows Phone is already ahead of IOS in 25 countries"

                  I note lack of citation. I have no way of knowing what claim you are making. WinMoPho8OfficePemiumMetroUltra (or whatever the marketing drones are calling it today) is ahead of iOS...all versions of iOS? (doubtful)...all platforms? (HAH!)...all versions of all platforms? (guffaw).

                  AC, it you are going to make claims please cite a source so people know what biased twaddle you are peddling. I'm going with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Mobile_devices

                  WinMoPho8OfficePemiumMetroUltra usage is not much more than a rounding error. Stick that in your astroturf FUD campaign and smoke it.

                  "And is still the fastest growing mobile platform year on year."

                  An utterly meaningless claim without context. When you begin from zero, it's very easy to claim massive growth. 0->1 is an increase of infinity % (for example).

                  "With the imminent release of the Lumia 930"

                  You mean the *NOKIA* Lumia 930? Nokia. A name that still carries a small amount of cache. The hipsters will puke into their manbags when MS loses the rights to that name and has to sell Microsoft Lumia 930s. Or maybe they'll reprise "Zune" because that has such an awesome amount of brand engagement. Not.

                  "the recent reduction in license cost to zero"

                  For some things, in some cases, some times. Stop making over-reaching claims

                  "I think that's near certain to continue"

                  I think MS is a monopoly abusing, freedom hating dinosaur that should be regulated into oblivion (along with a few other companies). See that's the thing about opinions, anyone can have one.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: It is not a cancer

                    "I note lack of citation"

                    http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2014/01/21/here-are-24-countries-where-windows-phone-outsells-the-iphone-and-why-it-does/

                    http://wmpoweruser.com/idc-confirms-windows-phone-has-overtaken-ios-in-brazil-in-q4-2013/

                    "An utterly meaningless claim without context."

                    The context is Windows Phone. See http://www.mobilenewscwp.co.uk/2014/06/16/windows-phone-os-to-dominate-b2b-by-mid-2015/

                    and http://www.mobilenewscwp.co.uk/2014/03/12/windows-phone-is-the-fastest-growing-os/

                    "The hipsters will puke into their manbags when MS loses the rights to that name and has to sell Microsoft Lumia 930s"

                    Microsoft has the rights to use the Nokia name for ten years on mobile phones if it wants to.

                    "I think MS is a monopoly abusing, freedom hating dinosaur that should be regulated into oblivion"

                    Not going to happen in the short term - share price is the highest it's been in the last decade and most divisions are significantly growing revenue - particularly the all important for the future 'cloud' based services...

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: It is not a cancer

                      "The context is Windows Phone."

                      That's not context. To have any understanding of what "greatest increase in sales" means we need to know the relative figures. I'll use a simple example:

                      Month 1

                      A - sales: 100,000 units

                      B - sales: 1 unit

                      Month 2

                      A - sales: 1,100,000 units

                      B - sales: 1,001 unit

                      The greatest increase was by B at 100,000% A only managed 1,000%. But if we look at units we have 1,000,000 for A vs a mere 1,000 B. Now that we have context we can see that any claims about how awesome B's sales were are complete twaddle.

                      Your first link to is a puff piece quoting a Microsoftie. Hardly unbiased. It's also very light on facts and is predicting future markets, not analysing current ones. It does not substantiate your wild claims in any shape or form.

                      They second just demonstrates what I meant about context "2.6 per cent to 3.3 per"

                      And another thing, the 10 years use of the name "Nokia" does not apply to the Lumia range. MOre like 18 months, or even less. So those hipster *WILL* be puking into their manbags before too long. http://wmpoweruser.com/leak-new-lumia-handsets-will-not-carry-the-nokia-brand/

                      "share price is the highest it's been in the last decade and most divisions are significantly growing revenue "

                      This has no bearing on the need to regulate a convicted monopoly abuser that is still actively stifling competition and innovation.

                      As to the rest of your claims, I think @Richard Plinston did a nice evisceration.

                      Hard to take when your astroturfing gets caught out, isn't it?

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: It is not a cancer

                        Not a very relevant argument when Windows Phone has already sold tens of millions of units.

                        The reality is that there were ~ 30 million Lumias sold in 2013 versus just 13 million the year prior. That's a fairly sizeable increase, one that Microsoft has to be feeling pretty content with.

                      2. RyokuMas Silver badge
                        FAIL

                        Re: It is not a cancer

                        "Hard to take when your astroturfing gets caught out, isn't it?"

                        Same question back at you about spreading FUD, now Google is trying to wriggle out of obeying the law.

                        Seriously, the whole browser war thing was 20 years ago. Let it go man, you're just going to give yourself a heart attack.

                    2. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: It is not a cancer

                      Forbes: Lumia outselling iPhone in Thailand?????

                      Well, I spend a lot of time there, it's my second home.

                      I don't think I have seen a Lumia phone (no, in retrospect I saw one, and looked twice to make sure it wasn't an N9, since that was sold heavily in Thailand), ever. I have seen plenty of iPhones and there are still a lot of Blackberries in sight, plus almost every dumb phone ever marketed. The Galaxy and the 1,000,001 other Samsung phones are visible everywhere as well.

                      I predict, that whatever the cheapest landfill Lumia is, then that will be the one that has actually sold a few, and that were sold through carriers. In Thailand most phones are PAYG, so counting what the carriers move is irrelevant (which might in fact explain some of the other countries as well).

                  2. RyokuMas Silver badge
                    Paris Hilton

                    Re: It is not a cancer

                    "I note lack of citation."

                    You get used to it after a while - like when Eadon used to rubbish WinPhone in a strangely similar way to you, Mr. A. Coward, and I asked him to provide statistics and links... he never did.

                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: It is not a cancer

                      "Eadon used to rubbish WinPhone in a strangely similar way to you, Mr. A. Coward, and I asked him to provide statistics and links... he never did."

                      If you check my posts you can see I *have* tried to cite a source for my claims. Maybe I don't always get the best source ever, but I do make the attempt.

                      For the avoidance of doubt - I am not Eadon (I always assumed that account was some kind of sock puppet).

                2. Richard Plinston

                  Re: It is not a cancer

                  > Windows Phone is already ahead of IOS in 25 countries.

                  That happened in _one_ month when Nokia _shipped_ more phones than Apple to those countries because a) Apple did not ship to those countries or b) it was the month before Apple announced their new phone and shipments were delayed until the new production was up and running.

                  > And is still the fastest growing mobile platform year on year.

                  It was for _one_ quarter many months ago (2012Q3 - 2013Q3) and that was because in 2012Q3 WP7 had been killed dead and WP8 wasn't in production. Since 2013Q3 WP has been in decline and 2014Q1 unit figures were below 2013Q1.

                  > With the imminent release of the Lumia 930 - which imo is their first really comparable high end platform - and the recent reduction in license cost to zero, I think that's near certain to continue...

                  Most of Windows Phone has effectively been zero cost, or indeed negative, with MS paying a $billion per year to Nokia to cover licence fees. Nokia never sold enough to pay that back.

                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: It is not a cancer

                    "That happened in _one_ month when Nokia _shipped_ more phones"

                    Nope - for 2 quarters now. And the number is climbing.

                    "It was for _one_ quarter many months ago (2012Q3 - 2013Q3)"

                    Wrong. Actually there is no month Year on Year in the last 24 months where WP wasn't the fastest growing mobile platform.

                    "Nokia never sold enough to pay that back."

                    Again wrong - Nokia already paid it back and the license fees started exceeded the support payments well over a year ago: http://mynokiablog.com/2013/01/24/nokias-turn-to-pay-microsoft-licencing-fees-now-greater-than-250-million-quarterly-donation/

                    1. Richard Plinston

                      Re: It is not a cancer

                      > Actually there is no month Year on Year in the last 24 months where WP wasn't the fastest growing mobile platform.

                      And yet Lumia (at least 90% of WP) has had a _falling_ market share.

                      """Lumia sales Q3 of 2013 . . . . . 8.8 M units . . . . 3.3% market share of all smarpthones

                      Lumia sales Q4 of 2013 . . . . . 8.2 M units . . . . 2.9% market share of all smartphones

                      Lumia sales Q1 of 2014 . . . . . 5.6 M units . . . . 2.0% market share of all smartphones

                      Source: TomiAhonen Consulting Analysis 3 June 2014, based on manufacturer and industry data"""

                      Even Nokia admit to falling sales:

                      http://www.wpcentral.com/nokia-posts-q1-interim-report-handset-sales-down-30-percent

                      > Nokia already paid it back and the license fees

                      """However with the increase in Lumia sales (4.4 Million) the tides have turned, seeing that the amount of software royalties Nokia has to pay has for the first time exceeded the 250 Million quarterly payout by Microsoft''''

                      This implies that the fees were $55.00 per phone. Others say that it was $15.00.

                      1. Anonymous Coward
                        Anonymous Coward

                        Re: It is not a cancer

                        "Source: TomiAhonen Consulting Analysis 3 June 2014, based on manufacturer and industry data""

                        Who? Never heard of them and I've been in mobile sales.

                        A quick check of someone I have like IDC says: "adoption of its OS was up 91 per cent, with global share rising from 2.6 per cent to 3.3 per cent last year." (March 2014)

                        "Even Nokia admit to falling sales:"

                        Primarily of Asha and other legacy OS devices.

                        1. Richard Plinston

                          Re: It is not a cancer

                          IDC says: "adoption of its OS was up 91 per cent, with global share rising from 2.6 per cent to 3.3 per cent last year."

                          Exactly. That was last year Q3. Since then it has dropped to 2.9% and then to 2.0%.

                          > Primarily of Asha and other legacy OS devices.

                          Yes, but also WP.

                3. Frumious Bandersnatch

                  Re: It is not a cancer

                  Windows Phone is [...] still the _fastest growing_ mobile platform year on year

                  I'll see your WinPho and raise you an xkcd

            2. RyokuMas Silver badge
              Boffin

              Re: It is not a cancer

              "Windows Phone 8+ uses C++ for the record - not C#."

              I think I'm doing pretty well with C# and Monogame, thanks.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: It is not a cancer

                >I think I'm doing pretty well with C# and Monogame, thanks.

                You also seem to think you're some sort of indie game dev super star for producing ripoffs of old arcade games. I'd take your thoughts with a pinch of salt.

                1. RyokuMas Silver badge
                  Childcatcher

                  Re: It is not a cancer

                  "You also seem to think you're some sort of indie game dev super star"

                  Superstar? No - just an old-fashioned developer who makes retro-style games for fun and dreams of "the good old days". Sure, I'll kick off against piracy and the spoiled anonymous whiners who seem to think that they're entitled to everything for nothing - but I have no false illusions about my little tribute to the 80s video arcade, hence why they're free to play.

                  So I'm sorry if I spoiled your party by simply pointing out that I can build for Windows Phone 8 - or maybe it's the fact that I can then deploy to iPhone and Android within hours from the same codebase that hurts your feelings - or the fact that I can do this using something Microsoft have created. I'm just happy to be able make games in the style I used to enjoy in my youth.

                2. This post has been deleted by a moderator

              2. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: It is not a cancer

                Yes you can extend Windows Phone with third party libraries. Out of the box it's C++ for native code.

        3. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
          Holmes

          Re: It is not a cancer

          would choose this over Java a million times and then some....

          Everyone has his own little psychopathy.

          1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
            Holmes

            Re: It is not a cancer

            would choose this over Java a million times and then some...

            Seriously, why would anyone choose the "I can do Java too - but only on MY OS, SO THERE NYA NYA" monoculture effort by the Big Extinguishing Starfish from Redmond? A million times and then some, even.

            A few beers short of sixpack IMNSHO.

          2. JLV

            >Everyone has his own little psychopathy.

            Care to explain?

            Oracle and MS are about as cuddly each as the other, so that shouldn't matter.

            Abstract away that Java is a first class citizen on Linux, Mac*, and Windows. Yes, C# is mostly Windows, Mono excepted.

            Forget IDE wars w Visual Studio too. Stick to the language.

            Why do you prefer Java? I'll tell you why I loathe it. Java's a spawn of theoretical computer scientists, not people who target productivity. Arbitrary complexity abounds.

            Case in point? Until Java 7 was there is even a built-in command to copy a local file? No. How difficult is it for the language to provide a function to call the OS to copy a file? It isn't. Copying byte to byte is acceptable, kinda, in K&R C, because it's so clean and stripped down and came out in '70. In Java's bloated API? No.

            What's the smallest code to open a text file and print it in Java again? Oh, what, you need a BufferedReader and a FileReader? Granted, Java 7 and 8 make it easier. Took them, what, 15 years to listen to their users?

            For a cross platform language, why do you need to check & code for the underlying os path separator yourself? Python code? os.path.join("temp","test.txt") will get you /temp/test.txt or \temp\test.txt. Difficult? No.

            Declared exception throws and catches? What for? So that higher up code can catch(Exception){}? Print a log and pretend everything's A OK? Or repeat all those throws, again and again? How often do you want to fix an exception that you had not allowed for? In many environments, you don't. Once you've closed down local critical resources cleanly, you may very well want to crash at the top level, print out some useful or not debug info, and fix your QA/testing procedures to adjust the bugs before you ship. Why force you to pretend you have all exceptions covered in advance? Granted, many programs can't be used if they crash on unexpected errors. Fine, architect your design around that, don't bugger the language itself from the get go.

            Ever gone to see a computer bookstore and looked at the Java section. Bloated with books, each 500pp, of endless Java libraries. Like, can it do anything out of the box on its own?

            Java's typed-checked, right? Hmmm, just what we wanted, except.... kinda sucks for any kind of dynamic behavior. I know, let's create Spring and do dependency injection from XML. Now you have two problems - your starting issues + xml files that can't be GREP-ed meaningfully and whose relationship to your code is tenuously declared.

            Passing function pointers in Java? Whatever for? No one uses those. Design Patterns to the rescue!

            Despite not particularly liking MS, I got the distinct impression C# is just a more clever Java. Start out with the good ideas in Java and there are many of those. But, dump out the theoretical crap and make things productive for coders. Better tools for using outside of Visual Studio would be nice however.

            Java, in 2014, shows all the qualities of Cobol in the 90s. Lots of jobs, stodgy, works for business, much used. Just as fun to write as well. Except, more complicated. Cuz, that's like what real computer programmers should aim for - complexity, which we all know makes for better code.

            Again, don't like MS, but I'd be curious what you hold against C# as opposed to Java, at the language level. I don't pretend to know all that much about either language, only studied them both for a while, but I know my preferences from my limited exposure.

            Last, despite C# coming from MS and being run on Windows, I don't see endless litanies of exploits on the C# VM, do you?

            * Having reluctantly installed Java on my Mac to run the wifi config app for a printer, I now find I can't uninstall it. At best, I can turn off the Java applet on browsers. But only for my user, because I need to an admin to turn it off for my kids' users. Oh, wait I am the admin? Still can't. Guidance to remove Java fully? Reinstall Mac OS cuz they couldn't be bothered to write a de-installer.

            1. vgiannadakis
              FAIL

              Re: >Everyone has his own little psychopathy.

              "Java's a spawn of theoretical computer scientists, not people who target productivity."

              You obviously are, at the very best, an incompetent programmer. More probably, the only form of "programming" you accept is shell scripting, otherwise you wouldn't complain about LANGUAGE-built-in file copying commands.. o.O

              Your quote above is exemplar of your inability to judge a programming language. Yeah right, Java is not productive, tell that shit to the MILLIONS of Java developers around the globe, many - if not most - of them from developing countries with ZERO investment in Computer Science until 15-20 years ago!

              1. JLV
                Happy

                @ vgiannadakis & Destroy All Monsters

                Oh, you know I'll answer to you and Destroy All Monsters at the same time, since you basically have the same rant anyway.

                Ad-hominem much, you two? You've managed to be factually wrong about every claim you've about me, except the incompetence part which we'll agree to disagree on.

                >You obviously are, at the very best, an incompetent programmer

                If you say so. I've been called cranky, but rarely incompetent.

                >compain about LANGUAGE-built-in file copying commands

                Seems like a valid thing to complain about. Why waste time on what should be a built-in?

                Why would anyone want to self-code or rely on a third party implementation of a local file copy? Self-coding risks missing a lot of edge cases and who knows how well a third party solution is implemented on various OSes? When relying on other people's code let's not forget the boon of Java productivity, Java versions either. How often are code bases stuck on Java 6 due to some incompatibilities? Why, never, of course ;-)

                >MILLIONS of Java developers around the globe, many - if not most - of them from developing countries

                Ah, an obvious market in which the discerning programmer will want to position herself. Law of supply and demand, ever heard of it? Outsourcing? Too complicated concepts for you?

                >Holy shit, there are books! TL;DR everyhwere. There are choices that I must make!!

                Oh wow. I never read any computer books. Darn, why does Amazon bill me so much? Grrrr...

                >You are probably one of the young ones who have entered IT in the last couple of years

                >Uh... yeah? So? This is bad how? Except for the guy who desperately needs to be down with the kids, of course

                You are so right! IT is all about tradition and sticking to traditional skills and acquired wisdom. And respecting our elders.

                Tell you what, in the early 90s I decided not to go with the flow and get the heck out of Cobol/mainframes. Never regretted it. Except for XEdit, brilliant text editor.

                I love computer coding and think it is one of the best jobs in the world, for me. But I don't want to spend 40+ hours a week working on a technology whose philosophy I fundamentally dislike. I felt that way about Cobol and mainframes. I feel that way about PERL, for very different reasons. I feel that way about Microsoft at the system level.

                I have the same negative vibe about Java, sorry. Life is too short to be doing something you dislike, unless you have no choice and can't adapt. I do and I can.

                Your mileage may vary.

                >This coming from someone who prefers a Microsoft solution.

                I don't prefer Microsoft. I just dislike Java. One thing I'll freely admit I got wrong with Java is that I used to think it was secure ;-)

            2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
              Holmes

              Re: >Everyone has his own little psychopathy.

              Care to explain?

              Java's a spawn of theoretical computer scientists, not people who target productivity. Arbitrary complexity abounds.

              I don't even know what to say about this kind of bullshit. You are probably one of the young ones who have entered IT in the last couple of years. Welcome. You have much to learn.

              Theoretical computer scientists ... Really? If you want LISP, you know where to find it. You can even use Clojure.

              [Nebulous rant conflating various points deleted]

              Ever gone to see a computer bookstore and looked at the Java section. Bloated with books, each 500pp, of endless Java libraries. Like, can it do anything out of the box on its own?

              Holy shit, there are books! TL;DR everyhwere. There are choices that I must make!! Why can'I matrixdownload Mad Programmer Skillz??? RAGE!!!

              Java, in 2014, shows all the qualities of Cobol in the 90s. Lots of jobs, stodgy, works for business, much used. Just as fun to write as well.

              Uh... yeah? So? This is bad how? Except for the guy who desperately needs to be down with the kids, of course.

              Except, more complicated. Cuz, that's like what real computer programmers should aim for - complexity, which we all know makes for better code.

              This coming from someone who prefers a Microsoft solution. But, you take your decisions and make your choices. You can leave your "complexity" at the door if you like to do that.

            3. Not That Andrew

              Re: >Everyone has his own little psychopathy.

              I wouldn't exactly call Java a first class citizen on anything but Windows and Solaris. You mentioned your issues on OSX and Oracle won't let the Linux distros (except Oracle Linux, of course) redistribute the official Java binaries anymore, so they all provide the OpenJDK now. It probably works better anyway (and supports BSD) and most were providing it by default anyway, but it does smack of an attempt to force companies toward using Oracle Linux.

        4. kventin

          Re: It is not a cancer

          """

          "they were risking C# becoming a niche for line of business applications"

          You realise thats exactly what it is for, right?

          """

          hey, you can make a catchphrase with it: C# is the 21st century COBOL.

          as for who (or what) you catch with it, well...

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It is not a cancer

        "It is just Microsoft's only way of keeping C# relevant."

        Ah, so it's part of the "embrace" protocol then.

        F/OSS projects and supports would still be advised to avoid at all costs, otherwise "extend" and "extinguish" with have them.

        MS is anti-freedom. T'was thus, and will always be thus.

        1. frymaster

          Re: It is not a cancer

          EEE:

          Embrace a technology

          Extend it to add value

          Extinguish the competition

          So... MS are embracing .net, will extend it compared to the pre-existing implementors (Microsoft), and will then extinguish the competition (er, Microsoft).

          Does not compute

          1. P. Lee

            Re: It is not a cancer

            I didn't see if they were just doing Apache/Windows or Apache/Linux. If it's Apache/Windows then its no skin off their nose to do that, though I can't imagine who would want to take Windows apps and run them not on IIS.

            If they are doing Apache/Linux then you have the wrong variables.

            Embrace Apache with C# (to gain C# devs and draw ecosystem away from FLOSS environments)

            Extend C# on Windows (to add value)

            Extinguish Apache and PHP etc (by making Windows the viable C# platform. FLOSS language devs will be left trying to play catch up to whatever features MS decides to add to the Windows environment; or will need to switch to Windows).

            As with all MS products, it will always be worse without Windows. That's not to say MS is doing anything wrong - that's their platform; but you'd be a fool to think MS is going to make it easy for windows devs to run code on Apache/Linux.

            1. Uffe Seerup

              Not Apache httpd (the "server"), but the Apache *license*

              Microsoft open sourced their C# and VB compiler under the Apache License 2.0 (http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0), which includes grant of patent license:

              "Contributor hereby grants to You a perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable (except as stated in this section) patent license to make, have made, use, offer to sell, sell, import, and otherwise transfer the Work, where such license applies only to those patent claims licensable by such Contributor that are necessarily infringed by their Contribution(s) alone or by combination of their Contribution(s) with the Work to which such Contribution(s) was submitted"

      3. streaky

        Re: It is not a cancer

        "keeping C# relevant"

        Spot the non-dev 4000 miles away. C# runs the roost in modern software on windows and linux. If it's not straight C for performance reasons it's almost certainly C#. Why? Because it's a decent language that's why. The way it executes is iffy but the language itself...

        1. asdf

          Re: It is not a cancer

          >C# runs the roost in modern software on windows only.

          TFIFY.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It is not a cancer

          No, it really doesn't rule the roost.

          There's a lot of shit enterprise code written in it for sure, but in several of the largest companies in the world, Linux + JVM languages dominate on large systems, with limited C or C++ for very performance-critical apps, and smatterings of python, perl, lua.

          You know, like it's been for the last 20 years.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It is not a cancer

          "C# runs the roost in modern software on windows and linux."

          Apart from the fact that C# does not run on Linux. That'd be Mono, which is a subset. Or perhaps through WINE, which is a implementation abstraction layer. Neither are really acceptable for production use.

          Nice try though.

          1. streaky

            Re: It is not a cancer

            "Apart from the fact that C# does not run on Linux. That'd be Mono, which is a subset"

            Smoke more crack. Mono is the runtime, like .NET on windows - it's still mostly C# the language.

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It is not a cancer

          You're 4000 miles away from right.

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