What can evolve in a billion years? On Earth, quite a lot. On Mars, maybe more.
Curiosity team: Massive collision may have killed Red Planet
Dual tests by instruments on the Curiosity rover, combined with data from the first Viking probes and Mars meteorites that have fallen to Earth, suggests that the Red Planet lost its atmosphere within the first billion years of its history, according to two papers in the latest issue of Science. Curiosity's tunable laser …
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Friday 19th July 2013 01:52 GMT Destroy All Monsters
You can get to photosynthesis, but Mars is smaller and colder, so the laboratory needs more time.
Now, if Pluto rammed Mars, wouldn't that have zeroed the surface of the whole ball and be evident??
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Friday 19th July 2013 08:12 GMT fandom
One theory is that the impact was so great that it stopped Mars' core from spinning, pretty much killing all possibility of life there.
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Friday 19th July 2013 14:37 GMT fandom
Anything else?
Of course, how could there not be something else. It takes about a minute at Google to find it.
Although I have to admit that I linked to the wrong photo.
"Bizarro stuff some guy makes up in his basement ahoi!"
You got to admit that some random guy in a basement sending a probe to Mars to take photos is quite an impressive feat.
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Saturday 20th July 2013 09:47 GMT Destroy All Monsters
Dear fandom...
Finally a good link
Unfortunately it is marred somewhat by the second link to WiseGeek where the author is terminally confused about the Northern Basin and Vallis Marineris not being the same thing at all. Not-so-WiseGeek also says "Moon-sized object nearly hit Mars, but instead scraped a deep scar in the planet".
NO! The MIT article says
"We knew there must be impacts between these size ranges," Zuber says. "But nobody had identified one." Analysis in the theoretical papers accompanying this one show that the impacting object that produced the huge basin on Mars must have been about 2,000 km across - larger than Pluto -- and struck at an angle of about 45 degrees, creating the oval shape of the basin.
I would say that's a "full absorbtion impact". Masses of that size do not behave like billard balls. They behave like very liquid droplets.
Must have been a slow-motion impact though so that the southern half of Mars is even retaining any trace of the before-impact era.
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Thursday 25th July 2013 16:23 GMT Marshalltown
Electric Universe
Actually, years ago - well decades really - the electric universe idea even got play in Scientific American. Some of the empirical elements such as Alfven Waves are still important ideas and were observed for instance on the sun in 2011. The most important proponent of the idea was Hannes Alfven, who won a Nobel in 1970. Details of the structure of objects like the "Red Suare Nebula" - http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap110323.html - are less difficult to explain using EU concepts than when using standard gravitational model ideas. So, no, not one guy working out of his basement. Just a non-mainstream theory that doesn't get much respect these days.
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Friday 19th July 2013 10:09 GMT Richard 81
@AC
No, actually this news story comes from a press release that describes one idea that they do have, based on the evidence that they've gathered. Finding evidence and coming up with theories that explain the evidence and allow you to make predictions is called science. If you don't like it, I suggest you consult your nearest homoeopathist, who'll no doubt help you through the trauma.
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Friday 19th July 2013 14:37 GMT Nigel 11
Impact? Isn't lower G and solid core sufficient?
Mars is less massive than Earth. Mars has a negligible magnetic field compared to Earth. If the latter has been true for a long time, isn't that sufficient to explain how the sun's solar wind stripped all the water from Mars? Note, water vapour is the lightest gas in the atmosphere. Methane (a likely major component of Earth's early atmosphere) is even lighter.
So do they really need to postulate a catastrophe? (Other than the freezing of whatever liquid/magnetic core Mars might once have had, which would have been a catastrophe for Mars life when taking the long view).
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Friday 19th July 2013 15:29 GMT 2nobel2013
Re: Impact? Isn't lower G and solid core sufficient?
Mars "stole" atmosphere and water from the Earth in the Theia impact (that created the Moon - and Mars - at the right tilt ...). Mars didn't have the gravity to hold on to its stolen atmosphere so it sublimated into space (though many of the mechanisms you speak of).
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Friday 19th July 2013 03:04 GMT Wzrd1
So, a smaller sibling of Earth got smacked hard and died.
Earth got smacked harder, but being larger, hence, hardier, Earth survived.
Initially, I was considering rejection, based upon the current Earth's and Mars magnetic field, but then, I considered the mass of each and reconsidered.
Less massive, cool faster. Geomagnetic field dies sooner. Remnant of atmosphere is erased sooner.
No Barsoom here, move on.
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Friday 19th July 2013 13:31 GMT Nick Ryan
IIRC some of the recent theories on the Earth and Moon, there was one body initially and something comparatively large smacked into it, possibly shattering and then leaving or possibly merging with the resultant mess. In the debris that was left the Earth reformed out of the larger set of debris and the moon formed from the accretion(?) disk.
It's a neat solution to the problem of why Earth has such an enormous satellite and as I understand it, the chemical make up of both bodies does lend some support to it.
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Friday 19th July 2013 16:45 GMT Beachrider
Where the Earth impactor story came from...
There is ample evidence that the Moon is spiraling away from Earth, over time. It is getting about 3.8 cm/year further away from Earth. Winding that backwards gives a timeframe for separation of the Moon from Earth.
Apollo data indicates that the Moon was not 'captured', like Mars's two satellites were. The Moon has lower density than the earth, but its chemical composition is of a type expected at Earth's orbital distance from the Sun.
The numbers for separation are all about 4.5 Bn years ago, so things-still-orbiting within Mars's orbit are unlikely to be evidence from that. It is all a theory, so no one 'knows', though.
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Friday 19th July 2013 03:21 GMT amanfromMars 1
The Second Coming ...... and in Steganographic Code for Stealthy Colonisation of Invaded Forces
What can evolve in a billion years? On Earth, quite a lot. On Mars, maybe more. … Palf Posted Friday 19th July 2013 00:56 GMT
Hmmm? …. Evolution on Mars is revolutionary thinking, Palf …… and it would illogical and naive to not imagine that it be, whenever maybe more advanced, also counter-revolutionary and a quantum quandary for intelligence and presumably intelligent species to ponder and wonder at … and for primitives to definitely waste time and effort [which are a limiting, universal unlimited source and resource] worrying about and fearing what they don't know, but know is out there and a'coming in all manner of irregular and unconventional phorms/means/memes in Complete Command and Complex Control of ITSignals and AIMessages to/from/for Global Operating Devices with SMARTR IntelAIgent Systems of Remote Virtual Operation with Untouchable Intangible User Interfacing for Fault Tolerant Cyber Security and Failsafe Virtual Protection?!.
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Friday 19th July 2013 04:58 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re. Martian evolution
Google "Shultslaboratories", Sir Charles has extensively studied the data from the MER and other sources and conclusively proved the existence of fossils on the Martian surface.
Of course, NASA still won't admit that they even exist, but a catastrophic loss of atmosphere would have preserved the surface quite effectively so it is possible that in the past some sort of oceanic Cambrian Explosion could have occurred on Mars leading to very similar fossils being laid down.
The presence of perchlorates wasn't known at the time of the Viking missions so the negative life result on some of the instruments could have been explained; perchlorates are basically rocket fuel and if Mars had achiral life ie the amino acids and proteins the other way around then this alone could explain a lot.
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Friday 19th July 2013 09:42 GMT Professor Clifton Shallot
Re: Gussie
"If you believe that amino acids and proteins could be achiral, then that would explain a lot too."
I think he means that they might have had the opposite chirality but it is hard to be sure due to all the insanity.
Out of interest is there a simple proof that you couldn't make an achiral protein-building system? Is there a level of complexity of carbon chemistry at which chirality is unavoidable and below which there's an insufficient range of possible structures?
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Friday 19th July 2013 12:34 GMT Loyal Commenter
Re: Gussie
Re: Peter Ford
You can make a chiral molecule with four atoms, if you use Nitrogen, as its lone pair is steroegenic, for example you could make chiral ammonia if you had one hydrogen atom, one deuterium,and one tritium. It would probably flip between the enantiomers pretty quickly though, so you'd probably have to keep it cold to keep it stable. Oh, and it would be radioactive, but you get my point...
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Friday 19th July 2013 14:18 GMT Fink-Nottle
Re: Gussie
> Is there a level of complexity of carbon chemistry at which chirality is unavoidable and below which there's an insufficient range of possible structures?
That's pretty much it - chemical complexity or symmetry, you can't have both.
The carbon atom has a propensity to bond with other atoms or groups of atoms. The resultant organic molecules are three dimensional and have different shapes dependant on their composition. Stereochemistry is the study of these molecular shapes and how they interact; while the term 'chiral' describes a particular stereochemical property of an atom or molecule.
Sterochemistry is undoubtedly a consideration in the chemistry of life, where complex molecules interact like 3d jigsaw pieces. Proteins (with one exception) by their very nature posesss chirality. So, to refer to 'achiral' proteins is simply gobbledygook. In IT terms, it's like saying compiled C runs faster than uncompiled C.
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Friday 19th July 2013 14:27 GMT Nigel 11
Re: Gussie
Out of interest is there a simple proof that you couldn't make an achiral protein-building system? Is there a level of complexity of carbon chemistry at which chirality is unavoidable and below which there's an insufficient range of possible structures?
Sort of, and yes. A chiral molecule is any molecule with four non-identical sub-groups bonded to one Carbon atom. (There are also lots of other sources of chirality, but that one will do to start with). So, almost any complex carbon-based molecule will have a non-identical mirror-imaged form.
The more interesting question is whether mirror-life is likely to have evolved elsewhere in the universe. Life based on much the same building blocks as ours, but all components the mirror image of ours. Classical chemistry provides no reason why not. Quantum physics reveals that the weak nuclear force is itself chiral, and that there's a tiny difference in stability between Earthlife amino acids and their mirror-world alternatives. It's only about one part in 10^24, but there's a tipping-point in that L bonds stably with L, D bonds stably with D, and mixxed amino-acid polymers are much less stable than pure-L or pure-D ones. Ours is the mort stable. Evolutionary coin-toss, or inevitability?.
All speculation until we find some other instances of life. May be a long wait.
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Friday 19th July 2013 12:28 GMT Loyal Commenter
Re: Re. Martian evolution
'Conclusively proved', eh? I think the term you actually meant to use was 'hypothesised', or possibly 'scammed', since the web site that turns up appears to be touting a book, amongst other things. I'll believe this conclusive proof, once the author of that website has his orbital power stations up and running, which he promises 'very soon'. I stopped looking at the site after this, as it appears to have broken the needle on my bullshit detector.
Also, 'catastrophic' things tend to not preserve things well due to their, umm, catastrophic nature. Unless you have a different definition of the word catastrophic to everyone else. Usually in astronomical terms, it refers to something large hitting something larger, the sort of thing that woudn't so much leave things preserved, as leave them as a large glassy crater.
Also, the word you are looking for is not achiral. Achiral means a lack of chirality, i.e. compounds which are asymmetric, or consist of both enantiomeric isomers in equal measure (which would normally be referred to as racemic, as they still are not strictly achiral). The word you were probably looking for is heterochiral, meaning 'of the opposite chirality', but that would have to involve you learning something about chemistry rather than just pretending you do.
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Friday 19th July 2013 07:08 GMT John Smith 19
Interesting science and a cautionary tale for us as well?
It sounds like Mars could have been quite a lot like Earth at one time, but with taller people.
But lose 99.9% of your atmosphere and.....
One wrong move in the great game of celestial pool and the Martians would be saying that about us.
Thumbs up for 2 paths to this result.
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Friday 19th July 2013 07:33 GMT 2nobel2013
Maybe it was just one impact
Maybe the Earth impact that created the moon - also created Mars? Makes a lot more sense then these Nasa jokers who don't explain EVERYTHING (how did Mars get its atmosphere and water in the first place? Why is Mars tiled at a similar angle to the Earth? Why are Martian rocks very similar to Earth's mantle rocks?). I have a better theory, read mine. http://rampsontheory.blogspot.com